To TLIW:
Thank you for reading what I wrote.
Firstly, I don’t recall saying anything to
imply that poor midos might be a characterological situation that will not be affected much by regular reading or studying of sifrei mussar.
I can’t find a definition for the word characterological. If you are referring to the last line I added to my comment, it was written in the spirit of irony – mixed with some cynicism. But if you are going to lend implications to my words, let me clarify what I really believe! If the problem is really just poor midos, than in fact it should be affected very much by studying sifrei mussar, and adjusting one’s behaviors in sync with what was studied! I was referring to people who do not have emotional dysregulation, but behave poorly, and either do not read sifrei mussar at all, or who do not bother to implement what they have learned. If they did, they would improve their midos, (at their own achievable pace) despite, or apart from their spouse’s _______________ (fill in the blank) problem. They wouldn’t excuse their own negative behavior by comparing it to or blaming it on someone else’s. As far as I’m concerned “sifrei mussar” includes any and all resources that focus on self-improvement.
Part of your response, though, is the reason I choose to share less of what I know on a forum. Because people disseminate information that seems so solid, with terminology, personal experience, and “facts”. The problem is you don’t have all the facts. You have the facts that you have been exposed to. I did not mention any specific form of therapy, nor any particular therapist, other than an author of a book.
Just like you felt that some of what I wrote needed to be qualified, I would like to qualify some of what you wrote, in fairness to a significant group of vulnerable people, as well as to the readers on this forum. My objective here is not to encourage anyone to marry someone who behaves irrationally most of the time, or is abusive. I just want to balance out statements that can be taken as absolutes, and cause undue pain – and damage. Especially for the benefit of people who seem to think that a YWN forum is a good source for factual, statistical information!!
I do not believe that the treatment du jour, DBT is the full answer to ANY diagnosis. (actually, the new treatment du jour may be EMDR, but it’s hard to keep up with these things!)
Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is used today for many different issues. As you said, it is a [good] set of skills. Actually, it’s probably good for anyone, but particularly someone with intense emotions.
The position you have taken, (and chosen to share on this public forum) dismisses out of hand all people who for various reasons exhibit 4 or 5 (or more) out of 9 symptoms that describe BPD. (or fit the conditions in the way it is currently described in the DSM5 manual for psychiatric diagnoses, which I may add CHANGES, every few years. Is it the people who change, or the information, or the medical editorship, or ?…..)
There is a very broad spectrum of people who fit the criteria for BPD. There is conventional, and non-conventional BPD. There are people who are narcissistic, and people who are not. There are people in supportive families, and people who live(d) in a severely judgmental home. It is simply not true that recovery is not possible for all people with this diagnosis. Underlying trauma can be treated, and it isn’t treated only with DBT. There is no set amount of time for recovery from trauma. But recovery is possible. It is not up to you to determine whether a particular experience or family dynamic was traumatic! Recovery has steps, and those steps may be different for different people. I grant you this: a person who exhibits most of the destructive behaviors consistent with Borderline Personality Disorder, is probably not in recovery! That doesn’t mean they CAN’T be. While a person is in recovery, depending on where they are holding, they may be ripe for a relationship, or they may not be. And depending who you are as a person, you may have the disposition to see strengths outweighing weaknesses, or you may be someone who has a keen eye for weaknesses, and low tolerance for them.
I read your comment to somebody today, and she said something funny:
Crawling isn’t curable either. Generally people learn to walk, so it becomes less of a problem.
Maybe it’s true that you can’t cure BPD. But a person CAN grow out of it, and MOVE on, and no longer be “disordered”!
There are some excellent therapists out there. There also are some pretty unskilled, under-educated, and non-emapthetic(!) ones, when it comes to this diagnosis, sadly. With a number of different successful interventions, support, skills, courage, will, and appropriate attention to the maladaptive traits that have developed, a person with BPD can REALLY evolve, grow, and change. They need not remain on the verge of reverting to old, desperate responses to stress. Their personality will likely always be a more sensitive one. That may make them capable of more empathy and deeper relationships than the average person!
We do both agree that it’s a good idea to find out from people how a particular shidduch prospect responds currently in certain situations. You can also ask the person themselves. A person in recovery from BPD, knows quite well how they respond, and whether or not they stillneed extra doses of patience, understanding, and validation. Since it seems from statistics, that most of these people are quite intelligent, it would seem that they are best off with an intelligent spouse…. who would benefit from the book I referred to. I do not know if you have any sort of license to issue diagnoses. Perhaps you do. Perhaps you have not met anyone who recovered/is recovering from BPD. Or maybe you did, but you didn’t know! 🙂
I will not continue to post about this, for the reason I presented in my post above
HERE