That I was unclear, is obviously possible though hard to accept as I spelled it out many times.
Relief, I was not ”unrelieved ”so I don’t need any selfie
But that im misrepresenting the Torah viewpoint,is simply wrong
Take a look at the gemorah in makkos daf ches.it’s really on both sides.
משנה:יצא האב המכה בנו
I’ll type in English. You point out specifically where I go wrong
Someone asked rava,how do you know that the situation with chopping trees is a voluntary situation maybe he is chopping for a succah ? He responded,since if he finds cut wood he does not need to cut, it’s considered voluntary.
Asks the gemorah,
So why does the Mishna say, a father who hits his son to death is exempt from galus, since it’s a mitzvah? Why don’t we say since if the son has learned (as in learned Torah) you don’t need to hit him so even when he doesn’t learn, it’s not a mitzvah (the reason that learning is used is because the Mishna puts a father and a Rebbe together and a Rebbe only has the right to do it for learning)
Answers the gemorah
Even when the son is doing what he is supposed to be doing it’s a mitzvah to hit him like the passuk in משלי says
יַסֵּר בִּנְךָ וִינִיחֶךָ וְיִתֵּן מַעֲדַנִּים לְנַפְשֶׁךָ
So let’s put it together
The פסוק requires that in mopeds to be חייב גלות it must be a hitting that makes sense that it can kill. The Mishna says a father who does so and kills his son is exempt because it’s a mitzvah (to hit him. Not to kill him.) the gemorah clarifies that it must be so that it is a mitzvah even when the son is acting properly not only when he does something wrong otherwise the din would be different. And the gemorah proves that from a פסוק as well
Now let’s think further
what is the purpose of hitting a child who is currently doing everything right?
It can’t be to effect an immediate intervention as some posters understand the only benefit of hitting, because if is currently acting properly. So we need to look in the מפרשים who explain it’s to instill fear in him so he continues to act properly.
That sounds a lot like what chinuch is about. Training a child to act properly.
Look In the מפרשים on the פסוק that the gemorah brought. I’ll cut and paste them for you
יַסֵּ֣ר בִּ֭נְךָ וִינִיחֶ֑ךָ
וְיִתֵּ֖ן מַעֲדַנִּ֣ים לְנַפְשֶֽׁךָ׃
רלב”ג (כל הפרק)
עריכה
“יסר בנך”. בעודו קטן בדרך שתקנהו מוסר ויתן לך הנחה וקורת רוח מפני טוב מוסרו ויתן לנפשך מעדנים מרוב שמחתך בו עם שזה יישירהו לקנין החכמה ובה יתן לנפשך מעדנים במה שתשמע מפיו מדבריו חכמה:
מלבי”ם (כל הפרק)
עריכה
“יסר בנך ויניחך”, האב שאינו מיסר את בנו לבסוף ישנא את אביו ולא יהיה לו מנוחה ממנו, וקשה תרבות רעה בתוך ביתו של אדם וכו’, וכ”ש שלא יכלכלהו לעת זקנתו, אבל ע”י “שייסר אותו” לא לבד “שינחהו” כי גם “יתן מעדנים לנפשך”, שעי”כ ילך בחקי החכמה ואח”כ יוסיף אהבה וכבוד להוריו:
מצודות (כל הפרק)
עריכה
מצודת דוד
“ויניחך” – יתן לך מנוחה ולא תרגז בעבורו, ועוד יתן מעדנים לנפשך ר”ל תשמח עוד במעשיו.
מצודת ציון
“מעדנים” – דברים חמודים, כמו (בראשית מט): “מעדני מלך
So not only do they clearly learn it is to train him to go on the proper path (chinuch) BUT THEY EVEN THROW IN THAT YOU WILL PERSONALLY PHYSICALLY BENEFIT From such a child in your old age.
So שלמה המלך felt it’s proper to take action in chinuch that is not only good for the child but you can ALSO take your own benefit into consideration.
I’m waiting to be shown exactly where I erred, and what exactly the פסוק and גמרא mean other than what I have written.
Please don’t respond with the same tripe,
Wow I fell so bad for you.
Boy you are totally misrepresenting that.
Those are not response
They are denials.
I have presented a clear detailed position.
If I am incorrect it should be quite simple to say
Here you erred. The gemorah means this. The passuk means that.
Again my point here is not to argue on the current rabbinical consensus that today one should barely hit their children
Rather it’s to show tattie original Torah methodology was actually extremely pro hitting your children.
If that doesn’t sit well with someone they need to reexamine where their sensitivities are coming from.
Are they real Torah sensitivities or western ideals which have leeched into Torah true Jews