Reply To: Shidduch references

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n0, you are right, listut, not gezela. seems to come from Greek “robber”, as in Rashi on Ber 1:1 – taking something openly by force, as an organized group.

Yevamot 25b mentions first gazlanim are believed for edut to allow a woman remarry and then brings as a proof a baraita about listim. The argument seems to be that gazlanim/listim are not the same as murderers. Listim seem to be more armed/violent/maybe being an organized group. So, I did not quote correctly, but I think the point stands, even amplifies – not teaching a trade is “as if” making an organized armed robber. Maybe because they will all band together and insist on their right to take something.

I don’t think we disagree on greatness of full-time learning. It is a question, practically speaking, which part is holy and which part is getting a free ride, but this is a case with any holiness – it creates a danger (Nadav, Avihu) or one can claim, the holy part is so important that it is ok to have the side effects. I believe someone argued during the growth of yeshivot, that we need to teach 1,000 people to make sure we have one Gaon coming out and 900 people who made their life hard is the price to pay. And this may have been justified at a time. In normal circumstances, many tried to follow R Shimon (learn without work) and failed, and many followed Rabbanim (learn and work) and succeeded. I don’t remember the page for it, but I don’t think it was declared void.

it is a good question about using public funds. I think we first need to separate halakha and hasidut.
I am arguing for the latter standard, as we are discussing people trying to be Talmidei Chachamim, not just play one on TV. Example of Rebbe’s student in Bava Basra who refused to take money on account of his learning seems to be hasidut…

re:beaches. I think we need to look at what the funds are appropriated for. Going to a beach is fine, but building a house there probably not. Is it ok, for example, to use a bathroom in a store on a highway? I asked several people and everyone would, as hasidut, think whether it is maris ayn that they are entering the non-kosher store. Rarely that someone suggests, as R Yaakov Kamentesky does, that you should buy something in the store, as the free bathroom is intended to attract customers.

Jerseycare is a need-based program for people who do not earn much. It is charity. It sounds like moral hazard is at work here – people who could get low-paying jobs (“young working families”) are worse off than those who earn below Jerseycare threshold. People who take it because it is financially beneficial for them to work less are, indeed, listim, and not gazlanim, again, thanks for correction: a group of people whose votes induce politicians to take money from others by force.