Reply To: Problem with Melech HaMashiach from the Dead

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AviraDeArah
Participant

The abarbanel and sdei chemed have been discussed here at length; check out the other threads.

But in no universe would we pasken lile an abarbanel over a ramban in any case; they were completely different classes of rabbonim. And the abarbanel’s sefer which is quoted, yeshuos meshicho, is machniah to the ramban and quotes his vikuach all the time. Funny thing is that I’ve been through the yeshuos meshicho, i can tell you the main themes and points that the abarbanel makes, etc…but that one line is something i didn’t notice. On the other hand, messianic Lubavitchers don’t know the sefer at all, and just quote that one line!

And what was that one line? He says that you shouldn’t be surprised if moshiach is from those who get up by techias hamaysim. It isn’t clear id techias hamaysim happens before or after bias hamoshiach, so the question is up in the air; that in no way is an acceptance of second -coming ideology, where a messianic candidate begins his mission, dies, ks resurrected, and finishes it. This would be clearly against both the rambam and ramban, and the abarbanel basically never argues on either one of those rishonim. While the sefer deals extensively with christian issues, it never makes this concession; if he did, he would have been clearer about it, because it’s a dramatic deviation from the rishonim.

Go through the sefer. Learn it. It’s a great sefer.

But even if tha abarbanel says it could happen, we would respectfully not accept it if the rambam and ramban disagreed, just like we would take the gedolei rishonim over a lone acharon in a shailoh of kashrus, shabbos , etc..

The sdei chemed on the other hand, actually refutes chabad messianics. Because he interprets the gemara about moshiach being min hamaysim metaphorically, as referring to if klal yisroel is zocheh or not, if moshiach will be from shomayim or down here. But he deviates from the plain translation of maysim/chayim.

Also should be noted that this whole thing is only according to the first pshat in rashi. It’s known that Rashi usually prefers the second pshat, and in this gemaea, rashis 2nd pshat is that the tzadikim mentioned are dugmos, and that the gemara is not saying that moshiach will actually be from the dead.

What is meant by mesorah, is that the seforim which talk about moshiach; rambam in yad, igros taiman, igeres techias hamaysim, ramban shaar hagemul, vikuach, maharal, ramchal, kisveo arizal, gaon, yaaros dvash, drashos haran, and tons more… don’t even quote this gemara about the possibility of him being min hamaysim. They ignore it, either because rashis 2nd pshat was accepted, or because it was a machlokes in which we as a klal paskened not like that maan d’amar.

Regarding the chazon ish…sometimes it stings, but yes, there were and are many gedolim who believed that the Lubavitcher rebbe was not a tzadik, a gadol, a nasi, or whatever else. The majority of the yeshiva world believes that. Some think he was a tzadik – i have no opinion, and i don’t care if he was or not. It makes no difference to me, not only because he wasn’t my rebbe, bit because my yiddishkeit does not rest on the idea of the greatness of one man. If i discovered that one of my rebbeim was not a tzadik, it would hurt, but I wouldn’t fall apart in my yiddishkeit, because i do not believe in men. I believe in Hashem, the Torah, and the unbroken mesorah from talmidei chachamim over the generations, who were guided by ruach hakodesh and siyata dishmaya. One person doesn’t make or break that mesorah.

The Lubavitcher rebbes status is between him and Hashem; it’s not productive for me to delve into it, and it’s not really my business. But ideologies that affect my people are my business, and as long as chabad situates itself at the forefront of community issues, including gerus and marriages, it will be high on my priority list to make people aware of the dangers of the neo chabad movement.

For example, nasan of gaza was once regarded as a tzadik and mekubal, but he joined shabsai tzvi; acher went off the derech, one of the rishonim became a priest r”l, and many young talmidei chachamim became maskilim….that doesn’t shake me. But for someone who does mitzvos for their rebbe, talks to him, writes him letters, believes that he himself saves him, that he can answer your questions….yes, a realization or a doubt about him xan rock your world. So perhaps it’s better not to go in that direction; whether or not he was a tzadik, messianism is wrong, and the entire Torah world either laughs at it or repudiates it. Finding a podcast with carefully curated snipets doesn’t change it. Go to BMG, chaim berlin, mir, Torah vodaas, ner yisroel, etc…and see what rebbeim and talmidim have to say about it. Do some footwork.