Reply To: Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

Avira,

“ CS, why does something need to be in older seforim for it to be valid? Chasidus isn’t in any sefer before 200 years ago. The peleh yoetz was before that.”

This part of discussion was about whether you cut someone out of a community because of tznius dress issues. As part of points mentioned, I said (even though it’sa Mitzvah) there is no section in Gemara all the way through kitzur shulchan aruch etc. devoted to women’s dress in its own right.

“Halichos bas yisroel is full of sources. Rabbi falk’s isnt – he was writing mainly as an instruction guide, and most women aren’t interested in looking things up.”

I hear, so is kvuda bas Melech. This doesn’t contradict the point above.

“The kitzur was written only 130ish years ago. And it was definitely not written for women.”

Really? So why does every girls high school and younger learn kitzur? Isn’t it The go to guide on relevant mitzvos for everyone?

Plus, all jewish women were tznius in those days. You didn’t need halacha shailohs and minimum requirements, because everyone was covered up and no one would dare do otherwise. There was absolutely no “fashion” industry and women didn’t wear clothes that were, to use an expression which somehow became popular among frum women, “flattering.””

While I agree that women covered up more in general throughout history, I’ve done research in history (unrelated project) in the 1600s in Italy- The Rabbonim were decrying the women’s fashion. That wasn’t the only place either- there were politics when the fashion in Yerushalayim years back was to stop wearing shawls…

“Take a look at pictures of European and sefardi jewish towns. More tznius than satmar! It was the הלוך ילך, the רוח אפינו – some things are so plainly obvious, so fundamental, that any simple jew knows them. Even the amei haaretz in chazal aren’t criticized for dressing untzius.”

Actually, there was a lot less covered in pre war Europe. It’s in the pictures. Also, I’ve heard there’s absolutely no source for covering the collarbone- Gemara mentions the heart…. I’ve heard this several times, I’d love if you have one (besides Minhag Hamakom.)

“You’re defending the indefensible.”

I’m not sure what you think I’m defending. I’m just saying if someone isn’t fully tznius you don’t need to write them off, you can learn from the good things they do, and respect them by ignoring their flaws, just like any other Mitzvah.

“And to the point of being machshil others, LH only is machshil others if they believe it, and it’s not something the person walks around doing nonstop.”

Really? I had thought you cannot listen to lashon hara? And how are you supposed to know if you believe it before you hear it?

“A woman who walks around untzius will be machshil men every second of her life and amass boatloads of sins that will not he attoned for by asking your rebbe for forgiveness or learning his musings.”

No one mentioned such a thing. Men have their obligations too, that they’re responsible for when they fail and if make others fail as well