Reply To: I Guess I’m Pulling for the “Chabad Media” Now?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee I Guess I’m Pulling for the “Chabad Media” Now? Reply To: I Guess I’m Pulling for the “Chabad Media” Now?

#2329197
Non Political
Participant

@ Arso

You wrote: “One of the things she said was that Yaakov Avinu can’t be alive because he would be suffering there, and why would Hashem make him suffer.”

Right. Because being physically alive has 2 aspects

1) the Nefesh animates the body
2) the Nefesh is constrained to experience whatever it experiences through the body

If he is physically alive in the full sense of that concept then both of those conditions would still apply and he would be suffering. So surely there is at least something different between the state Yaacov is in and the state a guy is in when he is buried alive, no?

“She also argued that Rashi does not mean he is alive.”

If alive means in the full physical sense then she is in very good company

“And don’t forget that she keeps on insisting that Rashi can’t be saying that he is alive because a later passuk says he died, and Rashi can’t be arguing with a passuk. This is all despite the fact that the Ramban explains that according to Rashi the sons mistakenly thought that he died, which philosopher keeps intentionally ignoring.”

I am not sure why she used that as a proof. Maybe she made a mistake. It happens to the best of us.

As to your claim that none of the mefarshim say that all conditions of being alive apply to Yaakov Avinu, look again at the Or Hachayim who writes:
חי הוא אלא דורמיטא קראתו כישן ונרדם, which to me seems clear that he’s saying that Yaakov was fully alive (and breathing!) and in a sort of comatose state.

דורמיטא denotes withdrawal (like how some kochos hanefesh withdraw from the guf during sleep). The point here is that the Nefesh retains a connection to the Guf similar to a person when he is sleeping. The OrHaChaim then goes on to describe some (there are others) consequences of that connection that are relevant to pshat in the Narrative. This is how I understand the OrHaChaim.

It’s true that there is some ambiguity here because one could understand the כ’ הדמיון two ways (as you probably know from the sugya in Brachot re כחצות). So, on could read the OrHaChaim as saying that Yaacov is precisely like one who is sleeping. This seems to be how you are understanding the OrHachayim.

Same thing for the Rifs use of the כ’ הדמיון in כאיש שנתעלף.