NP:Finally, in your last post you CLEARLY stated that “G-d had a preference for either Barkat or Porush, or for Obama or McCain”.
CESQ REPLIES: I never said that. I said that for those who believe in Da’as Torah, they would have to accept the premise that G-d had a clear preference as to who should be president. I’m not sure it makes any difference to G-d who was elected, and I’m certain that His will will manifest itself unchanged regardless of who occupies the Oval Office.
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NP:Now, I imagine that you would agree that when the average balabos (like me & you & RoB) is attempting to determine who to vote for, our considerations include things like
1) Who’s better for Israel?
2) Who’s better for the economy?
3) Who’s better for education? etc. etc.
However most of us never think in terms of “Who’s better for Hashem”? Or, “Who does Hashem want us to vote for”?
CESQ replies: Imagine all you want. You have no idea what goes through anyone’s mind. I posit to you, some people don’t even understand their own thoughts. Besides aren’t weall taught from kindergaarten on that we have to be avadim of Hashem and we must always strive to do His bidding? Is the yeshiva educaion so bad that most of us fail to get the message?
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NP:That’s the difference between Da’as Torah & Da’as Balabayis. Da’as Torah is thinking on a totally different channel then me & you.
Da’as Torah is thinking on Hashem’s channel.
CESQ replies: How do you know? Forgive the sarcasm which pervades much of this post, for all you know a particular gadol preferred Obama’s ties, or Palin’s Biden’s voice. Moreoever since it is imperative to you, in your weltanschaung, for G-d to have a preference, how can you know that a Gadol got it right? Sheesh I mean talk about wasting a vote. Not only could the wrong guy potentially win as a result of a meta-physical miscommunication between G-d and the Gadol, but G-d’s cosmic agenda, which was hanging in the balance, would be jeapordized as a result of some poor Yid voting the wrong way. Perdition could come to the world in the form of Divine retribution becuase Rav so and so or the “Xer” Rebbe didn’t pay close enough attention to G-d’s signal. A modern day Yonah situation might be catacalysmic. In a close election the cosmic stakes are way too high. I’d rather not vote. Fortunately the truth is, G-d could care less who wins any election. His will gets done regardless. G-d’s will can alwasy assume two trajectories; one good one bad. How we act does not shape His will, but might determine if the outcome comes with joy or via pain and suffering. Your assumption that there is a right or wrong course of action for every situation, is problematic in terms of the effect of teshuva. Of what use is our regret once our actions have reshapen our destiny? But in my system of belief, where it makes no difference what we do in terms of G-d’s ultimate will, teshuva is very effective. It puts us back on the track of getting to the end result through prosperity and joy.
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NP:Therefore being that the question here is, “Who does Hashem want to be President”? & NOT “Who do WE think will make a better President”? the Gedolim are eminantly more suited to make such a decision than ourselves.
CESQ replies: As I said before I don’t think G-d cares who is president. But I would have less trouble accepting this if all the “Gedolim” (which is also a nebulous term, but that’s a discussion for a different day) always intuitively and independantly agreed and came to the same conclusion. That they don’t, given the precarious position in which culmination of G-d’s plan is placed by this ludicrous system, I reject it.
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NP:As I stated earlier, does this mean Gedolim can never err? Of course not.
CESQ replies: But when they do, why should I trust them again? Is your belief based on nothing more than playing the odds? Pascal’s wager was always repugnant to me for the same reason that a mesachek bkubya is invalidated as witness. There is something . . .so very. . .well sleazy about people who live their lives by playing the odds, the winners all the more so. My relationship to G-d is not formed in a casino and not based on statistics. That a Gadol may have a better chance of knowing what G-d wants is not a legitimate basis for me to put my faith in him. I’d rather make the honest effort on my own and perhaps grow as a result.
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NP: Does this mean the Gedolim can never disagree? Of course not.
CESQ replies: But those disagreements, assuming they are l’shem Shamayim (and I’m skeptical VERY skeptical about that assertion) colapses the entire house of cards.
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NP:However the people who ask Da’as Torah such questions are asking for the same reason they ask Rabbanim Halacha questions – because they want to do Ratzon Hashem.
CESQ replies: This is not about acting in good faith. This is not about the hamon am. This is not even about the Gedolim, and it certainly is not about G-d. It’s about what is proper Jewish belief. I’ve poked hole after hole in this silly notion called Da’as Torah. All you do in response, is repeat the doctrine in different ways. Sorry, the emperor has no new clothes, he is as naked as he was the day he was born.
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NP: For example, I remember reading in the biography of R’ Pam Zatza”l about how someone once came to R’ Pam with the following scenario, He lived in Brooklyn & had a decent job & made enough money to get by with no problems at all.
He was now being offered a job out of town with a HUGE salary. What should he do?
You would say, R’ Pam is not any more qualified to answer such a question than me or you. However that is only correct if the question is, “What’s best for me”?
If the question is “What does HASHEM THINK is best for me”?, suddenly R’ Pam is in first place.
CESQ replies: Why? Because he’s a Gadol and knows Da’as Torah? That leads us back into the circular reasoning I pointed out on Friday.
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NP: It would be worth your while (you too rabbiofberlin – & everyone for that matter) to purchase the Sefer “Derech Sicha” which is a compilation of non-halachik questions (hashkafa) which were asked to R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlit”a. It is absolutely incredible to see how every single query was answered with a Passuk in Chumash or a Midrash etc.
Because a Gadol is in tune with what HASHEM wants – we are not.
So it is with all such issues.
CESQ replies: AHA!!! GOTCHA!!!! You now have posited something different entirely. R. Kanievsky answered non-Halachik questions based upon aggadaic and other SOURCES. In other words, he was erudite and applied his erudition, keen intellect and powers of inductive reasoning to a situation presented to him and gave sage advice to a questioner. That’s all well and good. Believe it or not, on the big questions in my life, I too seek out sage advice from Torah luminaries. I too believe they have unique and significant input to give. I intuitively feel that their expertise in Baba Batra or in Arvei Pesachim gives them profound insight into my mundane personal issues. It was a rav, in consultation with other greater rabbanim, who determined when to pull the plug on my father. It was a rav who’s advice I followed in choosing a profession. I proposed to my wife only after I took her to meet my rebbe (he told me if I wasn’t engaged to her when he next saw me, he was finished with me) But getting advice from great people, is a far cry from positing that such advice comes directly from G-d via the Gadol. We no longer have the Urim vTumim and it’s time we stopped trying to replace it with an ersatz imitation. Moreover, we didn’t always understand what G-d imparted to us via the Breastplate either.