TH:cantoresq: Your answers were a delight to read and I will honestly say that they made me think….
CESQ replies: Then I was a success. The ides is to stimulate thought. Non thinking dialogue is a waste of time.
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TH:1) I do not understand your train of thought, why must daas Tora have to be absolute for everyone?
CESQ: Because in the system of Da’as Torah, there is only one right answer to any problem.
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TH:Why can’t it be Divine will that A should vote X and B to vote Y? Who HaShem wants should win is a different question and HaShem will insure that His desired candidate will win anyway.
CESQ: Then you need to explain why He would want someone to vote for the wrong guy. Moreover, the Gedolim who proclaim Da’as Torah in an election (to use this very easy and appropos hypothetical) tend to say “G-d wants “X” to win.” Not “G-d wants you to vote for “X” and he might not be the one He wants to win.”
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TH: This idea that we must do what is right anyway regardless of the consquences and HaShem will worry about the outcome is all over in Chazal.
CESQ replies: I’m no baki in Shas and Midrash, but the examples of doing the right thing even if it leads to a wrong result that come to mind tend to be about reaffirming the integrity of the Halachik process and the need for continuity and predability within the law (i.e. the execution of R. Eliezer’s son, and the Ramban in Sanhedrin on whether Beth Din should ever admit to having made a mistake if it executes a innocent man). Perhaps you know of an instance where people were told to do the wrong thing becuase G-d wanted them to do the wrong thing and for no other reason. If you do, give me the reference.
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TH: Tomor was prepared to die so as not to embarrass Yehuda even though she was carrying the future of Klal Yisroel (the ancestors of ????? ??? ??? and ??? ?????), to cite one example.
CESQ replies: Sorry, but the text doesn’t say Tamar was ready to die. Quite the contrary when her silence didn’t save her, she produced the walking stick, the evidence of her innocence, and Yehuda had to admit the truth and said “Tzodka mimeni” Nor does it say that she knew who her progeny would be.
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TH: Our job is not to ensure results but to act in the correct way and the results will follow.
CESQ replies: You’re not really saying anything here
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TH: Once you accept this basis then, I think, your arguement falls away. It is not a contradiction in Divine will for one Gadol to say vote X and another to say vote Y as nobody is saying that they are telling us who HaShem wants should WIN but how HaShem wants us to act and vote. Therefore it can be correct that Ger should vote X and Litvaks Y as I have argued all along.
CESQ: For the reasons above I don’t accept your basis.
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TH: 2) Here you touch on another very valid point. Chazal tell us “??? ?? ??”, how to choose is another subject BUT once you have chosen then stay there and dont move around at your own convenience.
CESQ replies: You didn’t read my hypotheical. I posited that the person is question picks a gadol to follow to his detriment, i.e. against his personal interest but out of a real desire to act truthfully; even if it harms him.
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TH: If you are a Gerrer then follow the Gerrer Rebbe ALWAYS etc.
CESQ: Always? What should a Spinka chasid do? (I don’t mean to muck rake or cast aspersions. But TH says one much always follow his rav. What is one to do when it is proven that his rav is a knave?) What does the recent indictment of the Spinka Rebbe, which was based wire taps and the testimony of co-conspirators, say about his “Da’as Torah” and his past pronouncements? What about other chassidic groups and their rebbes who have been embroiled in similar scandals? (PARDON me for asking.) What am I, an outsider, to make of the Da’as Torah of roshei yeshiva who have built their institutions on basis of benefits fraud perpetrated by their avreichim, said fraud either encouraged or tolerated by the leadership? Who are the people we are “making” into leaders and then imbuing them with Divine insight? For G-d’s sake!!! Where is the integrity that ought to be the undergirding and the key linchpin to this entire belief system? Assuming this absurd notion had any validity, those who espouse it have made a mockery of it. The schorah is there, but where’s the Torah?
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TH: 3) This question was once asked to the Ponovhez Rov ztl after a speech where he compared the Jews to an army. Just as an army has different units for different duties – a navy for sea fighting, an airforce, tank units, foot soldiers – each to his purpose but combining to win the war, so too the Yidden have chassidim, litvaks, sephardim etc. each to his purpose but combining to do Divine will. The question was then asked about the position of Conservative and Reform as they too are part of the “army”. The Ponovhez Rov ztl answered on the spot, of course they are part of the army, they are the deserters…. Need I add another word!
CESQ replies: Now you’re contradicting yourself. Above you suggested that G-d’s plan might include people doing the wrong thing. You further posited that proclamations of Da’as Torah are not about what G-d ultimately wants, but are about what G-d wants individuals to do, His ultimate agenda notwithstanding. Now as regards heterodox Jews, you cast them either out of the pale of fulfilling Divine will, or as evil doers, depending on how you understand the Ponevizher’s use of the term “deserters.” Which is it? Does G-d intend for people to defy him (an idea I’m becoming attracted to. I’m not considering it as I’m looking for an easy out for my shortcomings. Rather I like it because ot makes it easier to forgive others who leave the folds of observance, which makes it easier for me to understand the world. It also makes G-d an entity I can better relate to. Just like I give my kids controlled opportunities to be a little “bad” (i.e. a raucous water fight on a hot summer day, which I know will ultimatly result in someone getting hit or kicked and crying) because they need the release of those “mischief endorphines” G-d does the same with us. Rav Kook has an essay on the Akeidah which touches on this theme.), or are those do so “deserters?” You can’t have it both ways.
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TH: 4) Your final comment was indeed the hardest to answer!! You phrased it very well!!
CESQ: Thanks
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TH: It is however answerable from both sides. Reb Moshe Feinstein ztl was once asked by a journalist what made him so famous to all Jews? He replied that a lady once asked him a shaila, liked his answer, told her friends who then came too and they continued to spread the word until he became world famous.
CESQ replies: I like that answer. It fits with the injunction of “Asei lecha rav” More importantly, it’s true.
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TH: Gedolim are not born gedolim but become Gedolim.
CESQ replies: Not according to the Artscroll biographies hehe 🙂
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TH: This is a lifetime work of continuous effort in avodas HaShem and something that is almost impossible to imitate (Exceptions like Shabetai Tzvi deserve a separate thread). Gedolim dont know Divine will because they are gedolim but because they are living their whole lives bekedusha ubetahara and immersed continuously in divrei Torah and yiras shomayim. This entitles them to the siyata dishmaya and ability to judge situations according to the Torah and its Writer.
CESQ replies: Do you know that, or do you believe that? There is a big difference. I happen to believe you are probably right. I believe that there are holy people in the world, and that they become holy as a result of great spiritual effort. I think that such people might be able to intuit the right answer to big issues more often than others, assuming they have accurate facts before them. And that’s where this all breaks down. Time and time again it’s been shown that Gedolim make Da’as Torah pronouncements without first learning all the facts from all points of view. Garbage in, garbage out.
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TH: Similarly, HaShem plants in every generation a select few to be these leaders of klal Yisroel – ??? ??? ????????. This is included in the brocho of ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ???’ and therefore HaShem ensures that His leaders are available and accessible in each generation and it is OUR job to follow them.
In short, a Godol knows Divine will because he has worked on himself all his life to be a fitting messenger of HaShem AND because HaShem has chosen him.
CESQ replies: That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t resolve anything. It does not address trhe problem of accurate facts, the problem of disputes between gedolim, nor what I will dub the “deserter issue.”
As a postscript, I hope I’m accomplishing two things in this conversation (which I might add is extremely enjoyable). First, that people realize the side of non- acceptance of Da’as Torah is grounded in legitimate Jewish doctrine. Second to paraphrase the Rav zt”l religious moderation does not equal religious ambivalence. People should know that too.