Rabbofberlin: Again I ask you mechila for upsetting you.
YWN Moderator 72: I too believe that there is lots of new ideas and points being raised in this thread so please allow us to continue. (Sorry for the long posts but the subject requires long detailed responses!)
Cantoresq: Due to the time difference in Israel, I could not wait for your response but I will try to clarify my position now.
“CESQ: Because in the system of Da’as Torah, there is only one right answer to any problem.”
Where do you derive that from? As I explained earlier, there is only ONE OUTCOME that G-d will ensure happens whatever we do, right or wrong, but that doesn’t mean that G-d necessarily wants us to work towards that end. Continuing our example of the elections in Yerushalayim – I do NOT mean to try and say I know G-d’s will here or that other possibilities cannot apply etc., I just am using it as an example and as a possible scenario to explain my point – Say HaShem wants to “punish” the chareidim and have a non-orthodox Mayor who will cause problems for them so He will ensure that Barkat will win. This can be achieved in many ways, either causing more chilonim to vote or having an unpopular chareidi candidate or 1001 other options or even different combinations of them. It does NOT follow from this that HaShem wants us chareidim to work for Barkat’s election, He will ensure his victory but it can still be considered a chilul HaShem for a chareidi to vote for Barkat – the chiloni, against Porush – the shomer Shabbos. The results are in HaShem’s capable hands, our duty is to live our lives al Kiddush HaShem. Even if a novi would come and tell us that Barkat will win, we would still have to vote Porush lekadesh Shem Shomayim. One of the “gabboim” of Rav Eliashiv shlita told me recently that the morning following the elections he told the Rov that Porush lost. Rav Eliashiv ignored him, so he tried again unsuccessfully to get an answer until he asked him directly what does the Rov have to say about it. Rav Eliashiv told him that from the beginning he had no misconceptions that Porush would win, he didn’t stand a chance. The only reason he called to vote Porush was lekadesh Shem Shomayim. It was obvious to him that Porush would lose.
Therefore it is no contradiction in daas Torah to have one Godol calling to vote Barkat and another Porush, as daas Torah is NOT assuring that G-d’s wishes will happen, that is in G-d’s own capable hands, but daas Torah is deciding what is the correct thing to do lekadesh Shem Shomayim. HaShem wanted us to vote Porush to be mekadesh Shem Shomayim even though He was ensuring that Porush will lose. Continuing further in this hypothetical explanation, in order to achieve a larger victory to Barkat, G-d decided to arrange the machlokes with Ger and to cause the Gerrer Rebbe to feel that a vote to Porush is a chilul HaShem and to act accordingly. This does not mean that had the relevant parties made peace and not fought, then Porush would have won. No, G-d would have used another method to arrange Barkat’s victory.
This idea is echoed in Yosef’s words to his brothers (?????? ??,?-?) that although they did wrong by selling him, G-d used their error to complete the necessary fulfillment of His will ie providing the sustenance for Yacov and his family during the famine and arranging for Yacov to go down to Mitzrayim. Look in the Midrash (?????? ??? ??,?) that Yacov was supposed to be brought to Mitzrayim in chains but HaShem used the sale of Yoseph as a means to ease the difficulty. So indeed they did wrong but the OUTCOME is the same. Had they not sold Yoseph, the same result would have been achieved in other ways. Were they punished for selling Yoseph?- Yes, Reb Elchonon Wasserman ztl Hyd writes (I think in ????? ??????) that all the blood libels were a direct punishment for the sale of Yosef, others add the ???? ????? ????? too. So we see clearly how G-d’s will is achieved however we act, our aim is NOT to help G-d sort out His problems but to do the right thing and leave G-d to sort Himself out. It can therefore be correct for us to act against the Divine Outcome but to do Divine Will for us and even receive rewards for it. It can therefore follow that group A are supposed to do one thing according to Divine will and group B to do the opposite also according to Divine will. Your assumption that daas Torah must have one answer is based on your assumption that daas Torah is Divine Outcome, that is incorrect.
I think that answers the first few of your points. (About the wordings of these daas Torah’s – well I think that is churlish as the Rabbis dont write them, the askonim do. You should be mature enough to understand that and appreciate that the Rabbonim are calling on you to vote A because that is the right thing for you to do NOT because G-d wants A to win!)
Concerning Tomor, Chazal tell us (Rashi 39,1) that Tomor acted leshem Shomayim and Rashi on the Midrash (85,2) says clearly that her intention was to have the future Kings of Yisroel. Furthermore chazal learn from Tomor that she remained silent and didnt embarrass Yehuda (she sent the stick as a way of informing Yehuda only, Yehuda could have remained silent too and noone would have known and she would have been burnt) that “Better to throw oneself into a furnace than embarrass someone publicly” (Sotah 10b). We see the need to do the right thing even at the expense of losing ones life and the future of clal Yisroel. It is HaShem’s problem to sort out the OUTCOME not ours. In the same Rashi (39,1) he compares Tomor to the wife of Potifar who knew too that she was supposed to have children from Yosef and started out leshem Shomayim but when Yosef refused she did the wrong thing and had him thrown into prison. She lost out but the outcome was the same as Yosef married her daughter. (??? ???? ??? ?? ?????).
Your point of choice of Godol, I dont understand your question. So what if the Godol decides to your detriment. Generally, one doesnt choose a Godol by his opinion on a particular subject, detriment or otherwise. The ??? ?? ?? comes before the questions you have, you dont have questions and each time look for a Godol to conveniently answer what you want. Excuse me if I have misunderstood you but I just dont follow your question.
I think that your next comments about the Spinka Rebbe and others show your true problem. Firstly, believe me I feel the same pain and anger as you at these stories and my heart breaks at the huge chillul HaShem involved each time. However, your almost hysterical monologue convinces me that this is your real reason why you cannot be comfortable with following daas Torah. All the rest is built on this base, the “proofs” etc came afterwards not before. The answer to the problem is included in my previous comment directed to “Rabbiofberlin” with the moshol of the poor farmer whose cow died. G-d will not allow us innocent trusting believers to be led astray by evil rabbinical leaders. He will ensure that they will answer correctly to save us though they will receive their just “rewards” for their actions as well as for daring to imitate being the King’s true servant.
Continuing to the Conservatives and Reforms, they are evildoers (deserters) and do not follow G-d’s will for them to be doing. This does NOT contradict the fact that G-d will use their errors to further His OUTCOME as I explained earlier with the example of using Yosef’s sale to bring Yacov down to Mitzrayim. I do not see the contradiction as you claim.
Your contention that “garbage in, garbage out” is an old problem and again I believe that G-d plays his cards exactly here. Just like in shidduchim when people make enquires about others and are told certain things, everyone calls it hashgacha protis how the right people hear the right things and the wrong ones the bad things etc. so too here, G-d controlls what He wants the Godol to hear (this does not exclude the Godol from doing his homework!!) and his reaction will be in accordance. This too is G-d’s will and perhaps this is our nisayon (maybe the Godol’s too to publicly admit his mistake when made aware of the true facts!!) to continue in our trust even after a mistake.
Dear Cantoresq, I believe I have answered here your three main points but I would welcome any further discussion (assuming that YWN Moderators will allow it). I too am enjoying this intelligent discussion…