It’s amazing that this blog was supposed to be about how thankful we are to America, and now we are once again debating Zionism. Nice try anway, Aileen.
Be that as it may, here are my two cents worth.
Firstly, Rabbi of Berlin, you are slipping again with your mocking of Mr. Schab and unjustly accusing him of smoking …Just reminding you of your sincere commitment not to do that anymore. Personally, I thought Schwab made good solid points. Sorry you don’t agree. No reason to hurl false accusations though.
Joseph, Will Hill and Bogen ,(and the others that posted here explaining the chareidi position) I agree with all your points. The bottom line is that we follow our gedolim in theirattitudes and perpectives, in fact they shape our thinking, so nothing Poshut or Berlin will say can make the slightest difference, but to shake our heads sadly at them.
To Rabbi of Berlin. Why discuss the gerrer and vizhnitzer rebbe when you have a much better raya. The greates zionist of all time was none other than MOSHE RABBEINU. No one loved and desired eretz Yisroel as much as he. Thos tzaddikim and Rebbes you mentioned are the same type of “tzioni” as Moshe rabbeinu. The thing is that the prevalent understanding of the term “zionist” refers to people who, though Jewish, sought to conquer the land for protection and desire to have autonomy. NoT to fulfill the mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel, because if they did, they would recognise that one doesnt choose one mitzvah and discard 612. The zionists of the time when the state was in its infancy did all that they could in their power to throw away Torah and yiddishkeit, and be “modern”. They have unfortunately succeeded in pulling away untold numbers of yiddishe neshomos from yiddishkeit. This is all documented and esily verifiable. This is part of the reason why the gedolim were in oposition, besides for the crux of the issue which was may we, al pi halacha, “force” the geulah to come by taking over eretz yisroel. The zionists of today continue in that path, but I think with much less idealism because hakol modim that “zionism” is a dying movement, in its death throes. Just look at all the children of those ardent zionists. They are in America, in Brazil, Europe, all over but in EY. Zionism went the way of every other false “ism” conceived by man