well, think BIG had time today for two long postings and I will try to engage the debate in a civil manner. By the way, what I said about chuck schwab was surely a “milse debedichuso” and I would tell him that personally if I ever would meet him. Sometimes, a hint of humor says more than an angry posting. it is not really an insult…But I digress.
The tragedy was that secular zionims grasped the moment and we. as frum yidden, did not.Imagine what would have happened if , at the turn of the 20th century, the Polish rebbes and their chassidim, the Litvishe Roshey yeshiva and their yeshivos would all have made alyah en masse.They would have founded a dozen Bnai berak’s and they would have been at the forefront of the government. And yes, they also would have had to fight as soldiers and work as farmers, like our own ancestors did. However, this is what we neglected.
Today, we are playing catch up and, boruch hashem, we are winning. More and more jews in israel are shomrei torah and the majority of olim are frum. The political scene is still troubled but we are making progress. My contention is that frum yidden should absolutely be enaged in political zionims and be engaged in the medinah-whether as soldiers or workers or farmers or just living there.
I am absolutely convinced that the majority of frum yidden in Eretz ysroel, the ones who vote for the agudah, are secret zionist in thier hearts. THat is, they want an independent, vibrant and free Eretz Ysroel under OUR control. I cannot say the same about degel hatorah,but it is clear from all waht the agudah oilam is doing that they are political zionists at heart. Not enough yet, because there are still problems with army, education and so on…but I call them zionists. On a personla level, I think that the kippah serugah machaneh has it right, but this is a debate for another time.
I will finish with the 800-pound gorilla in the room, and this is, of course, the shittah of Munkatch and present-day Satmar. This shitta is what you point to and what others on this website espouse. It is exclusively built upon the sugyah of sholos shevuos at the end of kesubos.
In his sefer “chibas Zion”, written in the early 1850″s, way before satmar or munkatch was even born, R’Zvi Hirsh kalisher gives an absolutely convincing rebuttal to this. If you wish, I’ll be happy to post the shakla vetarya.
Anyway, my point is that, in Eretz ysroel today, the rebbes and their chassidim , many of the roshei yeshiva and their talmidim have become crypto-zionists. They may not say hallel on yom ha-atzmaut or sing the hatikvah, but they all suscribe to the notion of an independent Eretz Yisroel, under our control. And this is only the right wing of the chareidim. As you move to the other camps, the sefardim, the kippah serugah oilam, the hesder yeshivos, this becomes even more pronounced.
Hakodeh boruch brought us back to our homeland for a purpose, and surely this is to stay there as the am hanivchar.