Rabbi of Berlin:
“Yes, I have problems with the multitude of kollelim and the fact that most (not all) chareidim do not become part of the army and other facets of Jewish life. “
Why, pray tell, do you have problems with the multitudes of kollelim?
And how can you have problems with chareidim not being part of the army if you can’t even understand their position?? Believe me, Rabbiof Berlin, if this was Milchamas Hashem they were fighting, the Chareidim would be in the front lines!!
Your second paragraph showed that you unfortunately misunderstood my point again. (Am I being unclear or is is you??? Can someone please help me figure this out?)
The talmidim of the Besh’t and the Gr”a came to settle in EY to fulfill the mitzva of yishuv EY, and not because of the difficult hardships of Europe. Beleive me, the conditions in EY were far more difficult, and it was with such great mesirus nefesh that they came! In fact, the conditions were so unbearable that many ended up moving back within a short time! But that has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever, so i’m not sure why you brought it up.
My point simply was that once (secular)Zionism reared its ugly head, the Arabs began to terrorize the people in EY. Before that, the Moslems/Arabs were not so fanatical about wiping us out. In fact, for centuries the yidden got along relatively fine with them . (relative to how their cousins under christian rule were faring.)
SO, to ask NOW the question you ask, would we be better off if it switched to arab rule, who can even fathom such a scenario? Because the entire equation has changed. We don’t know what history would have looked like had the zionists not done what they did, thus causing the arabs to retaliate the way they do…Now do you understand what i’m saying?
Also, you write, “unless you are like satmar that believes the medina is Treife”…Guys, please correct me if I’m wrong because I’m not the most familiar with this, but to my understanding, ALL chareidi leaders beleive that the medinah is treife! That’s the crux of the whole discussion here, isnt it? The thing with Satmar is that they take it a bit further by actively propagating the idea to its adherents (meaning it is a major focus of their belief system) and in prohibitting their chassidim from benefitting in any way from the zionists, as in visiting the kosel, Kever Rochel, etc. Reb Yoel zt”l was on the forfront of the whole anti-zionist movement.
The rest of us, while believing that what the Zionists did/do was against Torah, and that the founding of the State of Israel was against halacha (thereby making it treif) don’t have a problem benefitting from what is ours, despite the fact that the zionist war helped us get it.
Thats how I understand it, but I stand to be corrected.
Joseph: I hear your point. Thanks for the correction.