Reply To: Toeiva

Feivel, they can change their ACTIONS, but I don’t think they can change who they are. Homosexuality exists even in the animal kingdom.

Jothar, I was under the impression that those organizations help people control themselves and function in a heterosexual society – not that they “cure” them. There is a big difference.

Ames, the problem with this is that non-Jews are supposed to follow the sheva mitzvot bnei noach and we are supposed to fight for that. By allowing gay marriage, that is openly flaunting that the society no longer cares.

Squeak, arent we only supposed to kill them after warnings and two witnesses? Also, the reason we don’t protest on religious freedom is because a) we need it too much and b) Christianity is not clear cut avodah zara (neither is Islam). There are very few pagans nowadays, although atheism is on the rise. Its not an organized version though really…

I don’t particularly buy the “sanctity of marriage” argument because legal marriage is not really sanctified. It IS a business contract more than anything else. The benefits of legal marriage are tied to benefits, health care, taxes…not really anything that is sancitified. There is a reason we (and other religions) have religious ceremonies. [Again, it doesnt mean I believe that gay marriage should be allowed]

The biggest difference I think between toeiva and pedophelia is that toeiva occurs between two consenting adults. It may harm them spiritually, but its a choice they make. With pedophelia, it harms an innocent child.

I empathize with the toeiva community for fighting this struggle. They are a minority group that most hate (or rather, strongly oppose). Jews are often in that position, and have been as long as we were in galus. I acknowledge that their actions are disgusting, but I still empathize with their struggle.

And I feel guilty about taking a freedom that I want to deny. On a small scale, its kind of like accepting organ donations but never donating (as often happens in the frum comminuties).