Hi oomis,
Thanks for your reply. I responded to each component beneath the quote:
“Your second paragraph puzzles me more than it puzzles you. Caterers, bands, flowers all have charges that are pretty similar to each other. There are variations in the industries, but that’s why people shop around and pay for what they can afford.”
Shadchanim too, have charges that are pretty similar to each other these days. I have frequently of $1000 for each side, and $1500 as well. I once heard of $2500 (!) and rarely, $500, but the “standard” is pretty widely known and quite similar.
“I could not afford to make my daughter’s wedding at the Marriot Marquis, but I COULD afford Razag. I couldn ‘t afford a million hot smorg dishes, but I paid for what I could afford. I got gemach items, because they, too, were less, though I LOVE fresh real flowers.”
There ARE cheaper ways of engaging the services of a shadchan. Using family members or good friends (if they have the skills, the patience, and the many hours available) can be a cheaper option, because sometimes they will feel bad to accept the regular amount (although as I’ve said previously, I wouldn’t dream of underpaying the standard rate just because someone is a friend, and I know that lots of people have paid the “industry standard” to friends). Another way is to ask around and mention discreetly to a few people that you are looking for a shadchan that does it for the chessed only, and does not take money (or just takes a “hakoras hatov gift”. Most people want to pay shadchanus, not a hakoras hatov gift, although hakoras hatov should always be a centerpiece of this process.
“I do NOT view a shadchan as a vendor. That is too impersonal.”
That is exactly what is so sad for shadchanim. Because it is “too impersonal”, they should not get paid at least like a normal vendor? This is exactly what makes it so uncomfortable for shadchanim. The “job” of shadchan has been around for hundreds of years. The old “shtetl shadchanim” worked long and hard at their job, and did it for parnassah. So do many of today’s shadchanim. The difference between a shadchan and another service vendor is that shadchanim, for the most part, are doing this with an incredible passion and desire for people to find their zivugim, and there is a lot of “mitzvah” in the efforts. I would say similar to an extremely dedicated doctor, who of course gets paid for his services but is completely passionate and selfless in order to save lives.
“But at least people know what they are getting in service from all the above mentioned providers before accepting the service.”
Particularly because some people (although far from most) feel that shadchanim are there as chessed machines, to be called at will to help their child, it is important that shadchanim state their fees at the outset. It is uncomfortable, but important. It can be said neutrally, “I would love to help you; your daughter/son sounds like a wonderful person. I charge $1500 from each side, but of course that is only when there is a successful match”. From the consumer’s point of view, not knowing what the fee is in advance is no excuse not to pay the industry standard.
“You do NOT know what (if anything) the shadchan will find for you, and it really is only long after the fact that a shidduch can be deemed successful or not.”
Of course. Shadchanim are generally not paid for unsuccessful efforts, so that is not an issue. As far as a successful marriage, the band doesn’t wait to see if the marriage is successful, why on earth should the shadchan? The shadchan offered a match, the two individuals are (hopefully) adults who are making their own decisions regarding the suitability of the individuals for marriage, and unless the shadchan willfully lied or was grossly negligent about information, the couple made the choice to wed, and the service of a successful introduction needs to be paid.
“While I agree wholeheartedly that a shadchan should be shown some measure of hakoras hatov, if not professional, but a friend of the family, a relative, etc. a professional shadchan should have a reasonable fee that they charge.”
This is what seems to be the problem here. Shadchanus gelt is money paid to a shadchan for a service. It is hakoras hatov to enclose a warm note with the payment. (and a colored tie, like ronsrs did to his Rabbi in addition to the Rabbi fees :))
“I do not think that $1,500 from each side is reasonable”
This, or an amount similar to $1000 is the standard. You paid more than $1000 for the band/photographer duo, and didn’t tell them that it “wasn’t reasonable”.
“and I ask again, where is that written?”
As noted, the same place it is written how much to pay your gardener for yard work, your hairdresser for a sheitel wash, your high-school tutor for your child, your carpenter for your furniture repair, and your electrician for your outlet work. Do you ask “where it is written” for any other service that someone provides? It seems so inappropriate that of all “trades” the shadchan one, which involves so much thankless efforts, should be debated regarding fees as in “where is it written”. When a secretary comes for a job interview and feels $13 an hour is too little, the boss doesn’t say “where is it written that I need to pay you what you feel is appropriate, $15? He either pays, or chooses to engage the services of the secretary. Even more parallel, when you find out references for a new wig stylist and discover that her fees are $35 a wash and set and you are accustomed to your years ago rate of $15 a wash and set, do you say “where is it written that I need to pay $35?”. No, you either decide to engage her services despite the fees that your friends told you about, or you decide not to do so.
“If they don’t have the money to pay such a fee, does the boy or girl get given back to her parents? It really is not the same thing as paying for the band or flowers.”
Why is it not “really the same thing”? In which specific way is it different? I would say a shadcham is more important than flowers (to put it mildly), and if one can only do one, er, I think the choice is obvious. Flowers without a chassan/kallah are not very helpful.
“And should someone poor, as I stated in another post, never be redd shidduchim, because the shadchanim know there is no “real” money coming out of this for them? Maybe the poor families have no recourse to marry off their daughter or son – they have no people who have approrpiate shidduchim for them.”
That is a very important point, except for the sarcastic “real money” reference. A band would not offer services if they know that the consumers cannot pay, unless arrangements were made in advance and the band is doing it for tzedakah. The ugly reference of “real money” is because you feel the shadchan should be putting in hours and hours of his/her time for a chessed, and don’t realize that it is a trade just like any other, albeit imbued with mitzvah, passion and dedication, just like those incredible selfless doctors one hears about. If a shadchan, unsolicited, reds a shidduch to a family that he/she knows is extremely poor and will not be able to afford band/flowers etc, I would think the shadchan is planning on not accepting the usual and customary fees, and doing it solely for the mitzvah. B”H, there are many wonderful shadchanim who do incredibly selfless mitzvos, and I’m sure the poor of the community are thought of, just like in so many other areas.
“This mercenary approach makes me feel very sad.”
I am sadder about the climate of “let’s avoid paying the shadchan his/her customary fees”. It is a chiyuv to pay a worker on time, and the important work of the shadchan should not be left out because we “feel” shadchanim should not be paid a living wage for their efforts (at least for the successful efforts; unsuccessful efforts don’t have the tradition of being paid, but here is where hakoras hatov fits in, and is very much appreciated- a heartfelt note, a candy platter, a gift certificate, or even a modest monetary gift). In fact, it appears that it is the one who wants to avoid paying shadchan fees that is mercenary, not the hard working, underpaid shadchan.
“Again only the wealthy are deemd worthy. I cannot believe Hashem smiles on this.”
Hashem does not smile when people do not pay their workers and services providers, of that you can be sure. When I go into the store to buy a computer desk, and realize that the prices are above what I can afford and seem “for the wealthy”, my attitude is not that I am not “deemed worthy”. Nor do I bear a grudge for the poor storekeeper who is charging normal and customary prices for well constructed desks. Unlike a desk, a shidduch is infinitely more “essential” :), and one cannot simply give up and decide that one will have to pass. That doesn’t make the industry standard cruel, just like it doesn’t make the price of tomatoes sometimes cruel. It just means that just like in the other areas of wedding efforts will the poor need to have accommodation for them, either in the form of a shadchan doing it solely for mitzvah (a hakoras hatov note is always appreciated), communal funds earmarked for such matters, or another route. I haven’t seen anyone complain about how expensive even the cheapest halls are (who will start a thread on that :)), and say the poor aren’t worthy, lets demean the service fees for the hall rental because not everyone can afford it. Really and truly, I do not mean to minimize the anguish of those that cannot afford; I myself have to think about every purchase. But I don’t think it’s fair to pick on one wedding-related service, the shadchan, and ask why some aren’t deemed “worthy”. Perhaps the bands should play for a token “hakoras hatov” gift as well.
“Please do not think me to be of the opinion that people have no obligation to makir tov for something so important. I just question the amount of hakoras hatov involved.”
I only think well of you, and think that you are sorely mistaken in this particular area. As I noted before, you are an extremely intelligent person, as well as a nice person. And I think if you thought about it some more, you would realize that the usual fees paid to a shadchan are a pitiful (although standard) amount paid to the one who played such a crucial role in the marriage, in comparison to the photographer and caterer (who ALSO need to be paid on time and not made to feel that they have to run after their hard-earned money for services rendered), and in comparison to the likely hours and hours of difficult work invested in the successful outcome. Some shidduchim are fairly simple, most take many hours, some take an enormous amount of time, and that is why there is a normal, community standard, albeit with variations.
I think it’s best that I end here, because I’ve said what I think is important for the parnassah of hard working individuals, but to continue is to irritate you in the process, and I don’t know what is the worse. I never expected to dialogue this far, but surely it’s time for me to stop.
I continue to think well of you, and hope that you are ok with this dialogue.
All the best.