Moq, I can’t tell if your serious or your dreaming.
>> What is wrong with both? Anger will make use acknowledge the problem, but optomism will let us think of a solution
Rabbonim are standing on the issue of witnesses. THERE ARE NO WITNESSES. All the acts of molestation are done in private and not b’farheshia so how can there be two witnesses to each offense that a victim can bring to a beis din? Already a frum molester has protected himself and has given himself carte blanche according to halacha, also knowing that Rabbonim will not allow anyone to turn him over to the police. So getting two Rabbonim or more to come together and actually agree on this issue is not likely. Only one Rav at a time on their own will have the courage to name a molester a “RODEF” and attach all rules that apply.
>> One Rav here. One Rav there. Then you have two. And they have friends. R’ Elyashiv already gave us the word Rodef, now it’s a question of connecting the dots. And the public outcry makes it safer for a Rav to go public – as loud as the outcry is not “against those Rabbonim”. Then they will hide. But if we look for a Halachic solution, in the Halachic framework, and instead of saying “we’re going to blow down all the doors, Rabbonim be damned” and say instead “Rebbe, we have people and resources and two Rabbonim have signed and said we can go public with ten signatures. These are the facts.” I think it’s possible. Has it happened till now? No. But I think it’s possible. And I think now it’s almost MO against yeshivish, because it’s been done in the name of blasting Rabbonim and that goes against everything Yeshiva people believe in and is making them circle the wagons. It doesn’t have to be use against them. We acknowledge we messed up till now, and start building consensus. it doesn’t mean the agudah. It means with Halacha.
The decision whether or not to “out” a molester should not be YOURS to make. That should be the decision solely left in the hands of the victim. If the victim is willing to publicize the event and keep everyone safe from the monster then there should be no other collusion in regard to the privacy of the accused.
>>Obviously, I’m talking when they ask us what the right thing to do. And we have a disagreement here. My answer would be to bring the child for a professional evaluation, and work from there (yes, I know a child shrink is an obligated reporter. I would make sure I knew of a reliable, qualified non alarmist child shrink). And if the shrink was unsure, I’d investigate – and part of the plan is to have resources to do that. And if you get the go ahead from the shrink, then call 911. Unfortunately, usually social workers need to work with their hands tied by the victims. A woman, married ten years, – does she want her husband to know what evil Mr. X did to her in 8th grade?
On the other hand, MOLESTERS who turn themselves in should have their identities held private for having the courage to own up and seek help.
>>Same page here. And we need to finance it, and advertise it subtlely. I believe this is the most important point here. Because many of them are horrified by themselves, and then the rationales kick in. I once was sitting in a room with someone I knew was a molester and a times was on the table about a recent arrest in NY (yes, that one). And I said “they should be shot and killed” – he looked me in the eye (he didn’t know I knew, long , sad story) and said “what if they are just sick and need help?”. I was too shocked to speak. So I didn’t.
Every school has an Insurance rider to protect themselves against sexual abuse and molestation. So I am not sure where you are going with this.
>>> Yeah, see what the community – rightfully so – does to your school. Besides for the civil consquences, you will have no enrollment left, and imagine if you put 40 years of your life into that school. Think of the nisayon.
If there is an acceptable standard of histadlus that schools could hide behind, to defend themselves from the furor, they’d be more willing to come forward and say ” yes, we hired. we put him through a background check. We had cameras in our classrooms. We profiled. We’re so sorry, and now we’re going to work with the DA’s office to make sure it never happens again”. Again, we need to think past right & wrong, and think ‘how can I get all the stake holders to cooperate?’ and put ourselves in their heads.
As far as an independent panel is concerned, that is what the BJJ or Torah Mesorah was supposed to do, and the Agudah being the most respected and honored Jewish Organization that is basically worldwide should have done. They have the means and the know how to keep such a data base and to answer inquiries forwarded by educational or child related institutions.
>> How did Rebbetzin David get into all of this? 😉 Unfortunately, if we are talking about people that we can’t convict, they can’t discriminate or keep a registry, because the’ll get nailed on libel. No official organization can keep track of the nail everybody knows of. It needs to be beneath the radar, like a frum wikileaks based in Norway. Like the get mob.
That guy recently in NY – he got busted on child endangerment. He’s not registered as an offender. Put up a sign that he is – nailed for libel.
VNishmartem-
If people believed that is was wrong to go to the police without witnesses , then they believed it was righ to protect this guy from the authorities, because he was a victim of an injustice. Now, that’s wrong. But I see what they believed. We have a long tradition of expelling moserim and protecting our own. It takes a lot of bodies until to we see that this sugya is different. They weren’t evil. But they were sooo wrong. Now it’s time to pay the piper.
Ben Torah –
If you could just kill him by shooting him, going through all that is clor bittul torah & baal tashchis on the wasted bullets. Seriously though? If the only option was lethal action, we’d be obligated to do that as well. Luckily, we have a prison system and mines in new zealand.
And you can see where the anger is. This is hell for the rest of the person life. The lucky ones screw up their marriages and then get five years of therapy and hopefully put humpty dumpty back together again. The rest kill themselves or molest other kids or become drug addicts or abusive parents/spouses or s** addicts or homosexuals…yada yada yada yada