MiddlePath:
“mw13, I respectfully disagree. I don’t think it is worth nothing. If someone who doesn’t believe in G-d helps another person, and that person is inspired to help others, and so on, the original “non-believer” in my opinion has done something extremely worthwhile… It’s interesting that you mention how someone who doesn’t belive in G-d has no portion in Olam Habah, because that point is exactly what I was talking about in my original post.”
Perhaps he has done something nice, but it still isn’t actually “good” or “moral”. Also, when I pointed out that an apikorus has no Olam Haba it wasn’t to say that Olam Haba is the only point of doing good, only that when one does good they get Olam Haba. (Meaning that if somebody serves Hashem just for hashem’s sake or for any other worthy reason, he still gets Olam Haba for it.) So if an apikorus doesn’t go to Olam Haba, obviously all the “good” he has done is worthless.
GAW:
“Source?”
The Rambam (forgot exactly where) says that anybody who does not believe in thirteen certain principles has no cheilek in Olam Haba.
And I’m not sure what you mean by “don’t bring “Apikores””.
kol daveed:
“Certainly there is schar in this world and this is the reward of the individual in question(I believe Gavra stated this above).”
I wouldn’t call it schar, only a reality; helping others leads to fulfillment. Just like one would not say that being full is schar for eating, being fulfilled is not schar for helping others; its just the natural effect.
“Something we’ve neglected to note (and much more importantly), is that if this person truly does leave a righteous life (albeit without G-d), then potentially through this non-believer’s deeds/morality he merits some siyata d’Shmaya through which he comes to belief in G-d.”
My entire point here is that doing “good” for any reason not involving Hashem is worth nothing. And if this “good” is worth nothing, one cannot merit anything through its.
“Ultimately, I don’t think we can belittle the merit a mitzvah/good deed/moral lifestyle, whether or not he is a believer.”
I agree that we should not belittle it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s actually worth anything.
HaLeiVi, excellent post.
Middle Path:
“I do think that acting properly for the sake of the world IS acting for the sake of G-d… I think acting morally and being giving for the world is something G-d would want, so that IS acting for His sake.”
I don’t think its so simple. As RSRH pointed out above, we should help others to emulate Hashem, and thereby grow closer to Him. This is the main point of giving, helping others, fixing the world, etc. And if one does not believe in Hashem, he is missing this main point.
“After thinking about this a bit more, I realized that there is also a major difference between the following:
I am doing a good deed because G-d said so.
I am doing a good deed because I love G-d, and want to show my love by following His commands.
We should strive to be in the latter group. And I don’t think teaching our children the first method would be too beneficial. What do you all think of this distinction?”
While the serving Hashem out of love is indeed IMHO better than doing the mitzvos just because He said so, both are legitimate ways of serving Hashem. And I think we should first train our children to serve Hashem in the easiest way to understand; which is that we are serving Hashem for reward. Once they accept that and have a reason to serve Hashem, we can try to move on to higher level of avodas Hashem.