oomis 1105- thank you for the good words.
hello99- let me tell you where I come from (you won’t know who I am anyway but you’ll have to trust me on the details)
First of all, I have two sons who are both in kollel and I am very proud of them. I have great hopes for them in the future. So, I have absolutely no axe to grind against people who want to learn and who want to learn for a long time. What I have said consistently -both to all the people who know me and on this website- that to learn in a kollel and to rely upon the Tsibbur- is a unique situation (my sons never took money from the tsibbur)
and should be reserved to a few. What has been happening in our time is that every moshe, jehuda and shlomo wants to learn- regardless of his merits. Now- that is fine with me and with many people but-please- don’t burden the tsibbur with this! there are enough mosdos who need help and our money is precious. If you have private money, you can do what you want with it, but the tsibuur has to be more selective!
By the way, have you ever thought what this approach- to learn indefinitely- has done to shidduchim? there are hundreds- maybe thousands- of good girls who cannot get a shidduch because the boys want to be supported ad infinitum- and the parents cannot go into debt for all their lives!
It has always been the custom in klal yisroel that a select few people learned and were supported by the tsibbur for a limited -mark it, limited- amount of time. (I’ll give examples in a moment) but never, never has this happened that whole cities are living on someone else’s chesbon.
The Gateshead kollel -surely one of the best in the world- always had a very strict admittance policy- not every person was accepted.Even then, the avreichim were supposed to find a job after a few years. I know first hand that in slobodka of the old world, the avreichim were supported for a maximum of five years but then they had to go out and find a job.
This is what is the right way. The best- metzuyonim- should be supported for a limited amount of time and then find a position. This would free the money of the tsibbur for the new arrivals and it would also mean that the avreichim give back to the klal what they received.
Today- though- unfortunately, in Eretz Ysroel especially, it has become the way of life for tens of thousands of avreichim.
“lo zu hi haderech’. It puts tremendous burden on the tsibbur and on the wives. It perpetuates a lifestyle of not giving back to the tsibbur and it keeps idle a tremendous amount of potential in every sphere of life.
Not every person is cut out to be a rov or as rosh yeshiva-some of these avreichim would be fantastic in secular pursuits. I know firsthand tremendous attorneys and accountants who are bnai torah and contribute much more to klal ysroel now than if they were kollel yungeleit. This is how a society thrives- there are people of all kinds and all professions and together they can built a real Torah world.
On to the question of army duty. It is interesting that not one chassidische rebbe has joined all these protests. Their silence is deafening and for a good reason- they understand that not everyone should learn forever and that most of their chassidim must make a living. They are quite prepared to compromise and this was my whole comment on this situation.
Clearly, to me, the present situation is untenable- and has been for a long time. You can see from the discussions that the other side is prepared to compromise too- hence it is totally counter productive to issue wild accusations of “shaas hashmad’ ‘ they want to destroy torah’ etc…nothing is further from the truth. A large part of the chiloni world wants to live in harmony but there are limits to every endeavor. keep in mind the rambam’s “shvil hazohov”.
hope you change your mind about me, hello99.