mdd:
“To be fair, the State did provide a refuge for the Jewish people where they could live proudly as Jews.”
Yeah, if they didn’t sink your ship first…
“The truth is that it was all the persecution in Europe which caused the creation of the Zionist movement and the support it has had among the Jewish people.”
I don’t know about that. Persecution of the Jews had existed for thousands of years, in Europe and across the globe, without giving rise to Zionist movement. I believe Zionism was mostly just a Jewish take on the rise of nationalistic movements all across Europe in the late nineteen and early twentieth century.
The Chassidishe Gatesheader:
You have eloquently explained the Agudah view of Zionism and the State of Israel, which I completely agree with.
Naftush:
I’m not sure how Israel’s economic success proves that Zionism is morally correct.
ROB:
“When people question some ideas or decisions of Gedolim, it is in “milei de-alma”- matters that are not relevant halachically.”
And it is precisely in that context that R’ Dessler wrote that “It is forbidden even to listen to words like these, let alone to say them… the amazing agility of their minds could be perceived even by puny intellects such as ours; the depth of their wisdom penetrated down into he very abyss; there was not the slightest chance that anyone like you or me could follow completely the crystal-like clarity of their understanding… it would be wrong to set aside his words, much less to reject them, because of what we puny people think that we see with our own eyes. Our Rabbis have told us to listen to the words of the Sages “even if they tell us that right is left,” and not to say, God forbid, that they must be wrong because little I “can see their mistake with my own eyes.” My seeing is null and void and utterly valueless compared with the clarity of their intellect and the divine aid they receive… This is the Torah view concerning faith in the Sages.”
Sam2:
Again, I don’t believe that anybody is suggesting that the Gedolim are all-seeing and all-knowing; only that we cannot claim to be wiser than they were so as to decide that they were wrong.