From jaymatt19:
Until the last part of your piece it sounded like we were in agreement
Let me summarize. Kivan She’nitan is a concept in chazal. It exists, one can’t deny it.
But what do those words mean?
You say that Kivan She’nitan means that innocent people can be punished because of guilty people. So, for example, people not with korach would get punished solely due to korach. You say this based upon a lekach tov in parshas korach.
I say that it means that once the rishoim bring forth a tragedy, anyone can suffer, but each person suffers due to their own transgressions. So, in this example. Korach brought forth the din, and moshe warned others something to the effect of: “make sure you don’t have stolen property. If you do, you might get killed since din is coming. Normally this isn’t a reason to be killed, but Kievan shenitan so beware!” (property only used as an example, all aveiros are equal here). This is based upon the iyun yaakov and the emek davar.
So, both of us hold Kievan shenitan, the question is what it means and how it works.
For argument sake, let’s try to apply this to the hurricane.
IF the hurricane happened due the actions of the goyim and that might be a stretch
1. Does kivan shenitan apply when the goyim are the cause?
2. Let’s say that it does apply when the goyim are the cause, does that mean that yidden suffered because of the goyim or does it mean that the goyim created an eis of din, and yidden who had averios, whether big or small, suffered because of their own aveiros?
So now, post facto, let’s try to take the mussar from the storm
We can choose to see that yidden suffered because of the aveiros of yidden. And do a cheshbon hanefesh as to what hashem is trying to tell us to do better.
Or
We can decide to only see Kievan shenitan through the way that you quote the lekach tov, expand it to include cases where the goyim bring down the din, blame others and not see anyway to improve ourselves.
Can one legitimately see things this second way? Possibly
But it also sounds like it may be a ??? ????? to think that way
Also, should one choose to view things in a way which shifts the blame away from themselves when one can just as easily try to take a message and improve?
It has been a pleasure discussing this with you over the past week or 2. Thanks for introducing me to Kievan she’neitan.
Hatzlacha in all that you do