December 16, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #611581ZushyParticipant
Does anyone know the difference between ben and bein? [spelt with a segoil or a tzeirei?] I’ve been learning for some time, and i only found out recently.December 16, 2013 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #994648
Both meaning son? Isn’t one “son” and one “son of”? I believe it’s the same thing with kol and kol, one with a kamatz and one with a cholem.December 17, 2013 9:31 am at 9:31 am #994649ZushyParticipant
Lab, you are 100% right.
I only found it out this week when learning the Ramban on the posuk ?? ???? ????December 17, 2013 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #994650miritchkaMember
Doesnt ‘ben’ mean the son of, and ‘bein’ mean between?December 17, 2013 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #994651
miritchka – Yes, when it’s spelled ???. Without the ?, it means “son of”.December 17, 2013 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #994652mobicoParticipant
LAB – Kol and Kal mean precisely the same thing. Kol has a Ta’am under it, and Kal does not. Same thing with Es and Eis.December 17, 2013 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #994653oomisParticipant
ben – the son of…
bein – sonDecember 18, 2013 1:13 am at 1:13 am #994654YW Moderator-42Moderator
Mobico, it isn’t really “kal”, it is pronounced something like “kawl” with a kamatz katon and is generally connected to the next word with a makaf.December 18, 2013 3:57 am at 3:57 am #994655ItcheSrulikMember
42:A kamatz katan is supposed to be pronounced like a cholom i.e. a cholom as in ???? not a kamatz-yud as in God’s name. In practice most ashkenazim don’t bother, even serious daykanim.
The practice of transliterating a kamatz as aw comes from chazanus because in the Western musical tradition “uh” sounds are sung something like “aw”December 18, 2013 7:55 am at 7:55 am #994656
mobico – So why do you find differences in davening, where there are no Ta’amim?
oomis – I believe you got it backwards. Think “Vayoled ben”.December 19, 2013 7:35 am at 7:35 am #994657HaLeiViParticipant
LAB, it’s there, just you can’t see it.December 19, 2013 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #994658oomisParticipant
oomis – I believe you got it backwards. Think “Vayoled ben”.
I didn’t get it backwards. Remember, the Torah DOES NOT come with nekudos. People put them in, so if it is pronounced for some reason as ben, as per your example, that may be due to the way we have accepted pronouncing it in that instance. Generally speaking, from a strictly grammatical point of view, Bein is translated as “son” and Ben (as in Yosef ben Yaakov) means the “bein” of someone (though hopefully not the “bane” of anyone). It is typically written with a tzeireh under the beis, and not a sergol (I think that is the correct name for the three dots that vocalize as a short “e”, though I always said seh-gol as a child). BTW, sometimes vowels are altered because of some OTHER grammatical rule that comes before or after a particular word.December 20, 2013 12:16 am at 12:16 am #994659HaLeiViParticipant
Exactly. UlaSarah Bein.
(If you continue calling it Segol, like the Gemara does, you’ll be in good company.)
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