December 8, 2015 3:05 am at 3:05 am #616799
This week Jews celebrate the festival of Chanukah, to commemorate the miracles G-d made for them in ancient times. During the time of the Second Temple, the Jews overcame their enemies, who tried to force them to abandon the study of Torah and the practice of its commandments. (The Zionists of today have made, and are currently making, similar attempts.) With G-d’s help, the Jews won out, and were able to continue keeping the commandments.
Afterwards, when the Kohanim (priests) entered the Temple to light the menorah, they found that all the oil had been defiled by their enemies. They found only one small jar of oil closed with the seal of the High Priest, enough for only one day. A miracle happened, and they lit with that oil for eight days, until they were able to make new oil.
When the Jewish Sages of that time established Chanukah, they enacted the lighting of the menorah, which reminds us of the second miracle. A mention of the miraculous wars was inserted into the prayers, but it seems that the Sages were concerned mainly with remembering the miracle of the oil.
The reason for this is explained in the holy books. The Sages foresaw that the Temple would eventually be destroyed and the Jews would go into exile. During the exile, Jews are forbidden to wage wars; they are adjured to wait peacefully until G-d brings the exile to a miraculous end. The Sages feared that if too much stress were put on the wars, Jews in exile might be led to consider the idea of war as a means to redeem themselves. Therefore they established the practice of lighting a menorah in every Jewish home, to stress the miracle of the menorah in the Temple.
Furthermore, the Sages intended the menorah itself as a reminder that the redemption from exile will come in a miraculous way, not through human effort. The source for this symbolism is in the book of the prophet Zechariah (4:6). Zechariah was shown a prophetic vision of a menorah. He asked an angel what the vision meant, and the angel replied, “This is the word of the L-rd to Zerubabel, saying: Not by might, and not by power, but by My spirit, said the L-rd of Hosts.”December 8, 2015 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1115975sholomrovMember
I have heard from a reliable source that there is a menorah in the knesset that was a gift from the government of France. They had this beautiful menorah made, and then looked for a suitable symbolic verse in the Bible to engrave on it. They settled on the verse “kochi v’otzem yodi asah li es hachayil hazeh”.December 8, 2015 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1115976👑RebYidd23Participant
So it’s a message from true Torah Jews to whom? Is everyone else automatically false?December 8, 2015 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1115977
I guess I’m not a Torah-true Jew (whatever that is…) since I didn’t deliver that message.
The WolfDecember 8, 2015 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1115978ubiquitinParticipant
this is from “true Torah Jews”
I beleive “Torah-true” is trademarked by the AgudahDecember 8, 2015 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1115979Sam2Participant
sholom: That’s just not true. I mean, I don’t know how to disprove it other than the fact that the Menorah doesn’t exist.December 8, 2015 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1115980golferParticipant
“Torah-true” is trademarked by the Agudah?
Can you actually trademark that???
Never mind though; you gave me my good laugh of the day.
(The Jokes thread has been off the front page lately.)
And sholomrov, while you gave me a weak sort of a grin too, I suspect your story is not true. Was your reliable source, by any chance, a badchan?
I was waiting, though, for one of our resident anti-Z’s to point out that the Medinah’s Menorah has 7 branches. Could be they’re all still sleeping off last night’s tish, so I’ll wait a little longer…December 8, 2015 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1115981
this is from “true Torah Jews”
I beleive “Torah-true” is trademarked by the Agudah
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
In any event, I’ve always known that I’m a torah-false Jew (or however else you want to phrase it); just nice to have a confirmation from a true Torah Jew. Thank you, kj chusid.
The WolfDecember 8, 2015 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1115982December 8, 2015 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1115983thetruth1234Member
typical propaganda from nk to justify why they are sitting in america and ignoring the fact that Hashem has started returning Klal yisrael to Ey. Recognizing that they have no excuse, they just sit and talk about how bad the secular jews are, why is this relevant? does it make you feel better about the fact that you are ovdei avoda zara by sitting in chutz laretz instead of coming to EY?December 8, 2015 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1115984thetruth1234Member
and to top it off, they speak in the name of the torah, mammesh a bizayon, shomo shamayim.December 8, 2015 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1115985
You’re entitled to your opinion, even if it’s utterly and completely wrong.
The WolfDecember 8, 2015 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1115986
And you’re entitled to your humility and humbleness even if exaggerated and unwarranted. 🙂December 8, 2015 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1115987charliehallParticipant
“the Zionists have ignored the spirit of the candles, turning Chanukah into a celebration of the victories of the Maccabees,”
The Zionists wrote “Al HaNisim”? Didn’t know that!December 8, 2015 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1115988
Henceforth I must remind myself to always refer to you as The Tzadik Reb Volf.December 8, 2015 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1115989
“During the exile, Jews are forbidden to wage wars”
“the Zionists have ignored the spirit of the candles, turning Chanukah into a celebration of the victories of the Maccabees”
I got news for you: The Zionists are in the land of Israel. Therefore, according to your own words, they have the right to emphasize the wars.December 8, 2015 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1115990simcha613Participant
“A mention of the miraculous wars was inserted into the prayers, but it seems that the Sages were concerned mainly with remembering the miracle of the oil.”
I think the premise of the vort is wrong. It’s not a mention, the tefilah just talks about the war and a passing reference about the oil. The Chachamim seemed to incorporate BOTH miracles, the oil in our actions (with a little reference to the war Maoz Tzur) and the war with our tefilos (with a brief mention of oil at the end). I don’t think the war was downplayed at all in our Chanukah observance.December 8, 2015 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1115991
On Chanukah we thank Hashem for the “wars He made for our forefathers in those days.” Matisyahu with his tiny army of faithful Jews were miraculously able to drive away the entire Syrian Greek army. But what motivated them to go to war? Many Jews today, even religious, have mistaken notions about the role of war in Jewish history and in our time. One frequently hears the claim that it is important for Eretz Yisroel to be under Jewish rule, and that this is a legitimate reason to fight and risk Jewish lives. Those making this claim point to the story of Chanukah, when the Hasmoneans defeated the Greeks and established an independent Jewish kingdom. But let us read the words of Rabbi Avigdor Miller, of blessed memory, on this subject:
They did not arise to do battle for national independence, as the gentile-thinking Jewish writers of today would have us believe. The Nationalist Jews who forsook the Torah make a great to-do about the Hasmoneans, and depict them as patriots for political independence. These Zionists of today would have been among the Hellenisers, had they then existed; and the Hasmoneans would have been forced to fight against them for the right to practice the Torah. As long as they were able, the Jews sought peace and abhorred war, especially since war entailed disturbance of the Torah-regimen, which requires a peaceful and established community system. There was but one matter which could stir them to rebellion and cause them to take up arms: the interference with their observance of the Torah. Now the men of peace, and even the Cohanim, became warriors; and those who detested war became the fiercest of fighters. (Torah-Nation, p. 118)December 8, 2015 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1115992
“During the exile,Jews are forbidden to wage wars” (Quoting kj)
Hmm…..Am I imagining things or was Bar Kochba a chimera? Supported by Rabbi Akiva,no less. And don’t tell me that Bar Kochba lived in Eretz Yisroel…so do the Jews in Israel live there now….December 8, 2015 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1115993ubiquitinParticipant
I usually try to avoid these discussions on YWN since it just becomes a game of who can find sources to back up their side.
you asked “But what motivated them to go to war?”
But let us read the words of the RAMBAM, of blessed memory, on this subject:
???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????. ????? ??? ?????? ????????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????. ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???
The Ramabam isnt giving a history lesson. He clearly outlines as part of the reason for the revolt The fact that The yevanim took our money, women and oppressed them in addition to prevting mitzvos.
As part of the nes Hashem that we commemorate is the fact that “sovereignty returned to Yisroel for more than 200 years”December 9, 2015 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1115994
In the year 130 CE, Simeon Bar Kochba led a Jewish revolt against Rome and established a Jewish kingdom. This is another one of the cases listed by the Midrash when the oaths were transgressed. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 93b) says that when the Jewish Sages of that time realized that Bar Kochba was not the messiah, they killed him, putting a stop to his revolt.
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (1808-1888)
When the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times of an important fact; namely, that they must never again attempt to restore their national independence by their own power; they were to entrust their future as a nation solely to Divine Providence. (Commentary on the Prayerbook, p. 703)December 9, 2015 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1115995
We find in Sefer Daniel (11:14): “And the wicked among your people will rise up to actualize a vision, but they will stumble.”December 9, 2015 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1115996
Of course a Jewish state was permitted and even commanded by G-d in the time of the Second Temple look at the Haftorah we read on Shabbos Chanukah: “This is the word of Hashem to Zerubavel&” (Zechariah 4:6). Look at Yirmiyahu 29:10, “For so said Hashem, when Bavel has filled 70 years, I will visit you, and I will fulfill My good word, to bring you back to this place.” This Jewish state existed in a semi-independent way under the Persian and Seleucid empires, until the time of the Maccabees, when it became impossible to observe the Torah under the government’s harsh decrees. Then they rebelled and made the state completely independent.
Nowadays, however, we are in exile and no prophet ever commanded us to end the exile on our own. No time limit was given for this exile as was given to Yirmiyahu for the first exile. When we say that “the Torah forbids a Jewish state” we mean only now, during this era of exile.
Furthermore, The Maccabee revolt itself was foretold by Moshe Rabbeinu (Devarim 33:11 with Rashi) and by Shlomo Hamelech (Shir Hashirim 6:10 with Rashi).
Also, the Chofetz Chaim says that there is one kind of war that is permitted even during exile: a war against a decree of shmad, a decree made by a government that forces Jews to give up their Torah observance. The classic case of a war against a decree of shmad was the Maccabee revolt, he says. The Chofetz Chaim said that such a war would be permitted even today, when the oaths are in force, against an empire that outlaws the Torah, such as Communist Russia. (Recorded by Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman in his article “Omer Ani Maasai Lamelech” section 9.)December 9, 2015 3:51 am at 3:51 am #1115997
KJ: Bar Kochba and his war happened hundreds of years before the mention of “shlosh shevuos” in Ketubot.
A quote from Hirsch from the mid-nineteenth century has no relevance to today. Besides, you don’t follow any of Hirsch’s other minhagim. You just use his words when it is convenient to you.December 9, 2015 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1115998
As usual, you inadvertently serve to only discredit your idol instead of “helping it”. As a bonus, you seriously strain credibility of your usage of the word “rabbi” in your name.
Bar Kochba is known as “Bar Koziva”; in other words, a fraud.
Rivers of Jewish blood (literally) were spilled as a result of his rebellion, due to the violation of the oaths.
Rabbi Akiva backed Bar Koziva precisely and only because he fooled Rabbi Akiva into believing that he, BK, was Mashiach, at which point the oaths would no longer apply.
Your implied assertion, from BK’s war having happened before the gemara was compiled, is absurd.
The prohibition was merely recorded in the gemara then, not that it was any secret until that point nor was it not in force until that time, of course. The binei Ephraim (who escaped the inescapable Egypt) were nonetheless ch”v killed en route to E”Y when they violated the Oaths and left Egypt early (due to a miscalculation, of course, and not, CH”V, as an intentional rebellion).
Finally, your utter disregard for Rab Hirsch’s words is also distasteful.
The Zionists have no answers for their heresy and idolatry, and make themselves and their idol look silly when they try to defend the indefensible.December 9, 2015 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1115999sholomrovMember
Chazal learn the sholosh shevuos from pesukim in Shir Hashirim. Presumably the mesorah of those drashos were around long before kesuvos was actually written.December 9, 2015 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1116001
I would think the Rabbi of Berlin would give a bit more honor to the Grand Rabbi of Berlin, a giant of a man.December 9, 2015 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1116002
sholomrov; You mean to tell me that later Amoroim could not lean from pesukim of Shir Hashirim? Do you have any evidence that the Sholosh Shevuos was accepted before the times mentioned in Ketubos?
Little froggie: Hirsch was in Frankfurt,not Berlin.
HaKatan: IF-chas vecholiloh- events transpire as what happened to Bar Kochba, you will be proven right. Right now, I prefer to accept an alternate version of history. In any case, the result does not justify your words about waging war after the churbon-it disproves it,December 9, 2015 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1116004
“Rabbi Akiva backed Bar Koziva precisely and only because he fooled Rabbi Akiva into believing that he, BK, was Mashiach, at which point the oaths would no longer apply.”
Do you have a source for that?December 9, 2015 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1116005
“Bar Kochba and his war happened hundreds of years before the mention of “shlosh shevuos” in Ketubot.”
The drasha from Shir Hashirim predated Rabbi Akiva. The Targum Yonatan ben Uziel (who lived before Rabbi Akiva) mentions the Bnai Efrayim. I don’t have sefarim with me now, but look at the passuk mentioned in the sugya in Ketubot. The Targum Yonatan is on that passuk.December 9, 2015 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1116006
rob: He was big enough to be Rabbi of Berlin too. And I find it quite amusing that you go by the title rabbi, yet cannot afford one as great as him that title.December 9, 2015 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1116007
Little Frggie: I don’t know if you are of German ancestry but it is quite common to call him just “Hirsch” when quoting him. There was no “pesichas hakovod’ intended. And let me assure you that I live a life much more in accord with RSR HIrsch than most of the posters on this website. At least I work for a living,December 9, 2015 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1116009
Why do you assume that most posters don’t work for a living?December 9, 2015 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1116010
Hear you, ROB. Actually I am of German ancestry, I was unaware of the above.
as far as working for a living… hey, what you doin here??December 9, 2015 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1116011
DaasYochid and Littlr Froggie:mu apologies for questioning your status and motives.
MDG: You are mistaken. The targum that you quote is NOT Yonatan bn Uziel. It is a targum of much later date, probably fourth or fifth century. It does mention the Bnai Efraim on that possuk but what does this have to do with sholosh shevuos? Check the text and you will see that it had to do with golus mitzrayim not with any contemporary situation.December 10, 2015 4:20 am at 4:20 am #1116012
I wasn’t asking for an apology, I’m just wondering why you made such an assumption.December 10, 2015 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1116013
About what specifically are you asking for a source? This is not a chiddush.
“kitzvaos uKAyalos haSadeh” essentially means “open-season on…just like hunted animals” CH”V.
Your complete submission to your idol keeps you in deep denial of history and reality. Millions of Jews were murdered in WW II, and various gedolim at the time had warned about that punishment that then came as a result of Jews worshiping this idol of Zionism. The Satmar Rav states clearly in his sefer the direct cause-and-effect, etc.
Your idolatrous government, despite its vaunted military (of shmad), etc. is pathetically ineffective against the savages who murdered and maimed so many Jews in E”Y, including a recent tragedy, where the savages’ murdered a Kallah’s brother and father, both, just before her wedding. That is very simply “open-season”. R”L L”A.
So there is nothing left to prove; it has already been amply proven, Hashem Yiracheim. Your idolatry just doesn’t allow you to see reality, so you have no choice but to insist on futilely attempting to defend the indefensible.December 10, 2015 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1116014
HaKatan:As said on many other threads, it is useless to debate this again. You have your views, I have mine. BTW- it can be argued as effectively that the Jews were murdered by the Nazis because they did NOT go to Eretz Yisroel.December 10, 2015 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1116015Bookworm120Participant
kj chusid, Thanks so much for sharing your insights on the Chanuka miracles. I think I’ve been subject to a little of this Zionist pro-war agenda this year (e.g. the miracle of the oil being an “insignificant midrash” for children and the war aspects being the one true miracle; that “real Jews” fight wars while “wimps” just sit in front of their menorahs eating latkes….) And I thought I was doing so well on the “The world’s gonna go boom by President Billary, move to Israel NOW!!!” front. I’ll admit here (where I’m fairly anonymous) that they got me this time! 😛
Anyway, I think your post was G-d’s ways of gently putting me back in my place. Thank you, kj chusid.December 10, 2015 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1116016
Anything said before WW II must be taken in context, Whatever was said before the war , opinons charged after the war
Gedolim forbid leaving Europe for either The United States, Israel (And even Great Britain) before the war and obviously after the war they changed their minds.
There is no way to know if comments for example by Rav Elchanon Wasserman before the war would have changed his miond after the war. for example The Munchatcher Rebbe was a fierce anti-zionist, but after the war his son seeing the carnage seperated himself from Muncatch because he felt zionism was the correct path.
The Satmar Rebbe himself forbid his followers from leaving Hungry before 1939. Obviously after the war he changed his mind.December 10, 2015 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #1116017
What to do practically changes with changing circumstances, but hashkafos/ideology don’t change.December 10, 2015 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1116018
Of course sometimes hashkafos/ideology change.
Do you think a secular language (English) being the dominant language in the yeshivish world would have been tolerated in Europe? The hashkafa was to speak a jewish language which English certainly is not
It was AGAINAST all the gedolim to move to the United States before WW II. That was not a hashkafa, that was the halacha, Of course after the war such a halacha could not be kept anymoreDecember 10, 2015 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1116019
zahavasdad: A correction: The munkatcher rebbe did not have a son. He had an only daughter who married R”boruchel Rabinovitch, who succeeded him. And, correctly, he changed his mind,becoming the Rov of Chulon and a candidate for israeli Chief rabbi. The grandson, however, is still anti -zionist,although in much lesser degree than his grandfather.
DaasYochid: I don’t think that this dispute about sholosh shevuos is about ideology. Rather, it is a dispute about interpretation. “elu ve’elu”December 10, 2015 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1116020
ZD, that’s practical application changing, not the underlying hashkafa.December 10, 2015 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1116021
Please explain the difference between “underlying hashkafa” and “pratical applications” when the gedolim clearly forbid moving to US, UK or Israel prior to WW II and disdaned (If not forbid) a non-jewish language the main source of communication BETWEEN JEWS .
If you are going to say the Halacha and hashkafa doesnt chamge, it clearly did thereDecember 10, 2015 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1116022
Some communities still converse in Yiddish, and perhaps if it were feasible, all should, but it’s too difficult to implement.
Or perhaps there’s no inherent advantage, but the circumstances then made conversing in a separate language important.
Either way, it’s the circumstances which changed.December 10, 2015 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1116023lesschumrasParticipant
I will not comment on Zionism, except for your comment ascribing the horors of the Holocaust as a punsihment to those who followed zionism/
As others have written, the Gedolim strongly forbade leaving Europe for either the US or Palestine. Despite this, millions of Jews disregarded the psak and emigrated to the US, and a far smaller number emigrated to Palestine.
Ironically, it was the frum, chassidish , non-zionist Jews who did not leave and followed the psak who perished in the HolocaustDecember 10, 2015 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1116025
Circumstances also changed that it became not only permitted but desireable to live in the United States or Israel. While there are some frum communities in the UK, France and Belgium most of the frum communities are in the US and Israel which was forbidden in 1939December 10, 2015 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1116026
DaasYochid and zahavasdad: An even better example may be the question of sermons. For a long time, sermons -droshos- could only be given in shuls in yiddish. That started to change in the early nineteenth century when jews in germany and austria started giving the sermons in German. That was truly revolutionary. look up the teshuvos on that.December 10, 2015 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1116027
ROB and others:
Of course, in a free society, everyone is entitled to their views. But, for Torah, there is only “eilu viEilu” for Torah-conforming views, which, as discussed, does not include Zionism. Your idolatry is not, CH”V, Torah.
Regarding this despicable libel on gedolim, it is worth pointing out that the Chazon Ish wrote that people who blame the gedolim for deaths in the holocaust are apikorsim.
Had the Zionists not declared war on Hitler in the name of world Jewry, and had they not lobbied governments to not allow Jews in to their country, etc. Rav Hutner wrote on this subject as did many others. No, it was not because of “the gedolim”.
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