November 30, 2009 4:53 am at 4:53 am #590871HaQerMember
In reading the many shidduch crisis discussions, I noticed that one of the things that people claim is a cause for the shidduch crisis is that people are too picky, especially when it comes to looks. They always say that looks should be very low on a list of priorities, etc. I agree that people shouldn’t be picky about looks, that as long as you are not repulsed by someone’s looks, you should be willing to consider marrying them. My question is, why does the Torah, about which we are taught has no extra words, goes out of its way to mention good looks? I understand that by Sara Imainu, it had to explain why Avrohom hid her, and claimed she was his sister, but what is the reason for the Torah mentioning Rachel’s looks? It almost sounds like Yaakov married her because of that.
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We can assume that Yaakov didn’t love Rachel only for her looks. I’m sure he would have married her no matter what she looked like. My question is, why is her looks important enough for the Torah to mention? Can we say that has Leah been as good looking she would have been his first pick?November 30, 2009 6:15 am at 6:15 am #668999
Chas V’shalom To even consider that Yaakov Avinu married Rachel for her looks.
The Torah merely tells us that Rachel Imeinu was not only beautiful on the inside,
but on the outside as well. Rachel was his Zivug, as indicated when Yosef was born,
Yaakov was ready to leave Lavan. (please see Rashi Z”L for more details)
That is also why he made for Yosef the Kesones Pasim. Yosef is reffered to by Chazal
as Tzaddik. Also elaborated in Sifrei Chassidus.
If the girl you like, based on her middos, personality, etc.. happens to be pretty,
Kol Hakavod! If not, So what? The middos and personality will be a factor in building a Bayis Ne’man, not her looks. Though I cannot stress enough, the importance of liking the general appearance of your future spouse. That’s it though.
Any more delving in ridiculous shtusim as if a size 5 or 6 makes the girl a better mother for your children, or that if she went to seminary plonit instead of Plonis, makes her unacceptable, C’mon people! Wake up! When your still single at 40, I think
you’ll have plenty of time to ponder where you went wrong with your over-analyzing
petty, Gaivah’dige ways. Would you want your real basherteh to over-analyze you when you get redt to her, turning you down cause you do not measure up to her high standards? Leave the Cheshboinois To HB”H. If the Shidduch sound like they have good middos, a warm family. I dont mean middos, as in dress size, and i dont mean warm as in hefty bank account. Then you’ll find your Basherteh much faster.November 30, 2009 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #669000luv2laffMember
PPPSSSSHHHH NICE WORDS!!!!!!!!!November 30, 2009 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #669001JotharMember
Clearly you are supposed to like the way the girl looks, and not be repulsed. However, making transient things like looks (how many girls fatten up after 2 kids?) or money (how many millionaires are currently paupers thanks to this crisis?) guarantees you that your love will be transient.November 30, 2009 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #669002Feif UnParticipant
bein_hasdorim, I disagree with you. A friend of mine once told me that he had the following conversation with R’ Pam zt”l: he told R’ Pam that he was dating a girl for a while. He said, “She has amazing middos, her emunah and bitachon are great, and we have great conversations.”
“So, what’s the problem?” asked R’ Pam
“I don’t think she’s good looking. But, what kind of a reason is looks to turn down such a great girl!”
R’ Pam replied, “Oy, what are thigns coming to! It’s of the utmost importance that a person be physically attracted to their spouse! If there is no attraction, the marriage is doomed to fail, and the person is putting himself in severe danger for terrible aveiros! We need to teach bochurim that looks ARE important!”November 30, 2009 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #669003artchillParticipant
Jothar: Exactly the reason why people are in shock over the endorsement of the Shidduch Vision idea. It is so distasteful there are no words to describe it.November 30, 2009 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #669005jewish and working 22Member
When talking to my Rosh Yeshiva in regards to dating one of the many pieces of advice he gave me was the following:
“You have to think the following on your dates ‘Can you see yourself waking up next to the girl for the next 50 years’.” Meaning are you attracted to her. Attraction is relative to everyone, therefore there are no standards. However, it is definitely one of the most important aspects a boy should consider on his dates.November 30, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #669006mybatMember
If looks were not important why did Hashem make it human nature for women to want to look attractive?November 30, 2009 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #669008abukspanParticipant
without getting into supposition about what yaakov would have done had rachel not had her looks, it is worth seeing the ohr hachaim on the yifas toar and mareh of rachel. he writes that “based on chazal a talmud chachum should have a beautiful wife – against the yetzer harah. Although yaakov was above this ,on a high level the torah is teaching us the lesson”
this is a link to the ohr hachaimNovember 30, 2009 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #669010anonymrsParticipant
bein_hasdorim, of course attraction is important!! what good is all the inner beauty in the world if you dont want to go to sleep and wake up next to that person? obviously, no one here is saying that one should ONLY base a decision on looks, but attraction is a BIG part of compatibility. also, attraction is very important AFTER marriage- it is VERY important to make sure your spouse knows that you are still attracted to them, even after years of marriage have change their original look (yes, this applies to both men AND women!!) one who feels unattractive or unattracted to their spouse may start to foster resentment, and that is NEVER a good sign for a marriage.
EDITEDNovember 30, 2009 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #669011mybatMember
But let’s not forget that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What might be beautiful for one person could be repulsive for the next.
If someone goes out with someone who in your eyes is not pretty or handsome you might be surprised by their reaction.November 30, 2009 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #669012smartcookieMember
You just gotta use common sense. Looks are a VERY IMPORTANT factor in a shidduch but not the MOST important one.
Its very right to date girls that you think look pretty but its wrong to go only for the absolute most gorgeous girls. That means looking on outsides.
As a side note, how many woman start out beautiful and then put up a ton of weight, or get a whole bunch of pimples on their face or whatever…
Looks is up to hashem too…November 30, 2009 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #669013bptParticipant
Folks, we are talking about Yaakov Avinu like he’s subject to the same motivators like we are in the 21st century.
The Torah wraps these “stories” in a package that our mind can grasp, but don’t think for one minute that we are even in the Avos’s shadow.
We can learn from the “maaseh avos” but we should not judge them, as we are not even on the same playing fieldDecember 1, 2009 12:26 am at 12:26 am #669014anonymrsParticipant
just for the record, the original question and discussion was about yaakov avinu, but the rest of the conversation IS about people who are subject to the same motivatos like we are in the 21st century.December 1, 2009 1:15 am at 1:15 am #669015Feif UnParticipant
BP Totty, true, we can’t compare ourselves to Yaakov Avinu. However, that doesn’t mean the yetzer hara wasn’t there in those days. Look at Yehudah and Tamar!December 1, 2009 1:58 am at 1:58 am #669016yankdownunderMember
Is physical beauty (when finding ones shidduch) the most important thing, or is it a combination of physical and spiritual beauty. I think a Shidduch (imop.)needs both. Why do I say this, because the woman is more connected to raising children. So one not only has to think about waking up to their partner every morning, but also is she going to be nuturing to the children.December 1, 2009 4:46 am at 4:46 am #669017tamazaballMember
you are 100% right if a person is not atracted to someone they should not get married, and of coarse yaakov avinu married rachel fo her looks, someone told me that there is no love at first sight(atractivness) a person should only notice that the other person shouldnt get him nauseous , (ppl can get nauseous from eachother and that is a big problem) and in many cases they get married anyway!!December 1, 2009 6:33 am at 6:33 am #669018
Feif Un; anonymrs; etc.. I must have not been clear enough.
“Though I cannot stress enough, the importance of liking the general appearance of your future spouse.” With this I mean that one should be attracted to ones spouse.
That goes without saying, and I’m surprised at how I was so misunderstood.
The ranting in my original post, is about those think they have to
get a super model and are medaktik Kchut Hasa’arah, on every Kneitch.
that is SHTUSIM!!!
HB”H happened to create all the wives of the Avos to be Beautiful.
To say though, that yaakov chose her for her looks?!!
If anyone feels the need to find a haskamah for their own Shitos,
please ask your rov first, before you attempt to Translate the Torah in your favor.December 1, 2009 11:22 am at 11:22 am #669019
“Chas V’Shalom to even consider that Yaakov Avinu did not take looks into account. There’s a reason why it’s mentioned and there’s a reason why looks are taken into account”
are you such a big Talmid Chacham that you know the “reason why its mentioned”, or are you quoting that from some kind of reliable source? BP totty said a really valid point that many people seem to be missing, I’m not sure where you guys learnt how to understand Torah so superficially that you can make assumptions based on your own levels. Feif Un:”However, that doesn’t mean the yetzer hara wasn’t there in those days. Look at Yehudah and Tamar!” if you think you have any concept of the yetzer hora of either Yakow Avinu or Yehuda then you’re bordering on apikorsus!
Tamazball: “and of coarse yaakov avinu married rachel fo her looks, ” according to reform rabbis you might be right….
I actually do agree that its important to like the way you’re spouse looks, but wether or not this can be deduced from these pesukim can only be determined based on reliable Mefarshim(and talmidei Chachamim who know how to learn them!)December 1, 2009 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #669020balancedParticipant
i wonder, is the disagreement about the importance of looks split between women and menDecember 1, 2009 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #669021positiveaynayimMember
The Vilna Gaon addresses this exact question. He explains that Yaakov Avinu married Rochel because of her fine character, and that she would be able to bear children that would fulfill Hashem’s wishes. Her beauty was praiseworthy because she was an “Isha Yiras Hashem”, and that is the kind of beauty that the Torah extolls–meaning her natural physical beauty was praised because she had yiras shomayim.
The gemara in Taanis also talks about how Abba Chilkya’s wife would greet him “all made up”, because it helps a husband stay focused (on his avodas Hashem). So. there is merit to physical beauty.
Beauty is praiseworthy as long within the definition of what Torah values as beauty which has many dimensions connected to each other. This is what Yaakov avinu saw in Rochel.December 1, 2009 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #669022
thinking jew; your username fits!
positiveaynayim; Exactly on point! both of you are on target.December 1, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #669023rebetzinParticipant
Looks are extremely important in shidduchim.
I think what people mean when they say people are too picky about looks is that people decided beforehand that they need a certain type of look (example: blond, size 2) and won’t go out with people who don’t fit that look. A lot of boys would have no problem being attracted to a size 8 if they wouldn’t know beforehand what the size was. They also care about too much about what other people will say about their spouse’s looks. They not only want someone who they are attracted to, but they want everyone else to say they got an attractive spouse. Also, mothers of boys also want to love the way their daughter in law looks. It’s not enough for them that their son is attracted to the girl. So they have to check out the girl beforehand and there’s another reason why the shidduch might get nixed before it gets off the ground.December 1, 2009 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #669024Pashuteh YidMember
ThinkingJew: If Yaakov Avinu and Yehuda had no yetzer hara, they would not be Yaakov Avinu and Yehuda, rather they would be metallic robots. They had the same yetzer hara we all do, and this doesn’t take away from their gadlus a ki hu zeh. One works his entire life on not falling into the trap of the yetzer hara.December 1, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #669025
Bein Hasdorim: Thanks,
Pashuteh Yid: please reread what I wrote: “if you think you have any concept of the yetzer hora of either Yakow Avinu or Yehuda….” I didnt say they didnt have a yetzer hora. every person’s yetzer hara is according to their level. a simple example is if lets say you talk about the yetzer hara regarding kavana in Tefilla, for a regular person it would mean maybe concentrating on the words as best as we can, for a great gadol it might mean having all the perfect kavanos of each shem Hashem according to pshat drash and kabalah… or transcending this world entirely and not hearing or noticing anything at all outside of their tefila… whatever, get the point?December 1, 2009 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #669027Pashuteh YidMember
ROB: Thanks. I was going to post:
1) By Yosef–Chazal of Laasos Melachto
2) By Reb Amram (in Kiddushin?)–Nura bei Amram. He singlehandedly carried a ladder that took 4 men to carry in order to visit certain immoral women, and only saved himself at last moment by crying “Fire!”.
3) Rava in gemara Sukkah–said about himself he would have been nichshal where a simple Jew was not (on a friendly walk with a woman). Abaye told him not to feel bad, kol hagodol meichaveiro yitzro gedolah heimenu.
4) A story about Rebbe Akiva where the malachim told the satan, Hizaher b’Rebbe Akiva vtoroso, as he was about to be nichshal.
5) Dovod Hamelech–Vayar isha rochetzes.
Many many others.December 1, 2009 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #669028rabbiofberlinParticipant
there is also the story of rabbi Akiva (I think) and the roman “matrinoso” who tried to seduce him.
Shlomo Hamelech, of course.
other stories with Dovid hamelech Avigail-see gemoro Megillah- and some of his wives were “jefei toar” (specifically avsholom’s mother).
Aslo the story of the Amoro (cannot remember the name0 who had a wife in every town her visited, actually not to be ‘nichshal”…
and others.December 1, 2009 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #669029
we frum yidden believe in Torah SheBal Peh there are hundreds of Rishonim and Achronim who explaim all these situations in ways you probably wouldn’t even understand. It’s a bit hard to explain things through writing in a forum like this but I seriously recommend that you go to a rav and have these things explained to you Al Pi Hashkafas Hatorah!
Rabbi of Berlin I’m not sure what so hard about understanding that people’s nisyonos are on different levels. as you climb in your avoidas Hashem your nekudas habechirah changes and things that may have been difficult till now are not a nisayon anymore, and that doesnt make you any less human. so saying that the yetzer hara of the avos was different than yours just means they were greater tzaddikim than you. Does that sound too close to apikorsus too? If you still don’t get it then i give up!
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