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  • #587940

    marbehshalom
    Participant

    ?? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ???”? ??????? ??? ????? ????:

    IS this minhag correct?

    #620993

    cantoresq
    Member

    When I studied chazzanut in the Belz School of Jewish Music we were told to say it softly but audibly. I usually intone it in a falsetto (kop shtime). I know of no lusical arrangement that indicates to say it inaudibly

    #620994

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    For what it’s worth, whenever I daven for the amud, I always say it audibly too.

    The Wolf

    #620995

    ask a rabbi. Not a forum of ameratzim

    #620996

    The Big One
    Participant

    This is a matter of local (i.e. Shul) custom. I’ve seen it go both ways, and both minhigum are legitimate.

    #620997

    Yanky55
    Member

    This is a classic case of minhug ta’us. The minhug to say it inaudibly is NOT legitimate.

    There are some poskim who hold it should be said in a lower voice than the rest of the bracha, but that is a far cry from inaudible.

    #620998

    mariner
    Member

    same goes for not saying yehey shmey out loud, and modim in chazoras hashatz under ones breadth. these are also minhugai ta’us. a minhag that can go both ways, and it depends on the shul would be hageshem or hagashem in mashiv haruach (reb moshe and reb yaakov argued). yanky55 is right, there is no-one who says to say the end of the gual yisroel brocha under ones breath.

    #620999

    Yanky55
    Member

    Mariner, thanks for the backing, but a minhug ta’us cannot go both ways. If it is a ta’us then it is wrong, period.

    As gabbai in my minyan (there is no Rav) I privately ask someone who makes these mistakes to please remember to correct them the next time they daven for the amud.

    #621000

    a good zach
    Participant

    I know that the Halichos Shlomo says (page 93, or chapter 7 halacha 18) in the name of Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach that one should say the bracha out loud, because all of the Acharonim who say mehalchim in how to say it correctly, do not mention this technique. However, he says that if the tzibbur is makpid to say it quietly, then the chazan should act according to their minhag. Ask your Rav.

    #621001

    REALIST
    Member

    THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT MINHAGIM WITH REGARD TO THIS MATTER.

    THE BAAL HA’TORAH TEMIMAH’, IN HIS SEFER ON TEFILA CALLED BORUCH SHEAMAR SAYS THAT THE BRACHA SHOULD BE SAID ALOUD.

    THE MICHAS ELUZER AND OTHERS HELD THAT IT SHOULD BE SAID QUIETLY.

    WHATEVER ONE DOES – ‘YESH AL MI LISMOCH’, BUT MINHAG HAMAKOM TRUMPS EVERYTHING ELSE.

    #621002

    Yussel
    Participant

    I daven in a shul where one of the ba’alei tefilah says “Baruch Atah HaShem Ga’al” and then says the word “Yisrael” silently. So now we have a new bracha, “Baruch Atah HaShem Ga’al”.

    My question is as follows. I believe the Rema states that it is Muttar to say Amen after that bracha. So what is the big deal? Also, what about other people who are in shul but are not holding in the same place. Maybe they are at a place in davening, or not davening at all, where they could answer Amen according to all opinions. Why should we deprive them of an Amen?

    #621003

    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    How about Yotzer Ohr? (right after yishtabach) It clearly states unequivocally that one should not answer amen to that bracha, yet from time to time I hear people telling the chazzan that he should have said it loud <<BUZZ>> wrong! Look it up! Find out why he didn’t say it out loud.

    #621004

    Yussel
    Participant

    Mayan_Dvash: The bracha of “Yotzer Ohr” ends with “Yotzer HaMeoros” to which everybody answers “amen”

    #621005

    Bogen
    Participant

    The minhug of saying it quitely is legit.

    The reason for the minhug is because saying gual yisroel loud requires an amen, and most people in the minyan cannot say amen, since they are holding immediately before shemoneh esrei.

    #621006

    blue shirt
    Participant

    One must be extremely hesitant to deligitimize minhagim that have lasted generations if not hundreds of years or more. When I was a child, the shatz never said ga’al yisrael out loud, and I surmise that most of you out there who are over 50 and certainly over 60 can verify this. In the last 25-30 years or so, the minhag of saying it out loud has gained momentum and as others have pointed out , it is probably the correct way to do it. But to knock the “old” way? Absolutely not.

    On a related note, if you do a little research, you will find that ending any phrase with a kamatz instead of segol in the davening is a recent invention beginning with the haskalic medakdikim in the 1700s, some of whom were at best only quasi-observant Jews. You will not find any of these changes in nuscha’ei edot hamizrach, and there is a reason for that. This includes gefen-gafen, eved-aved, gever-gaver, geshem-gashem, and many other changes which NEVER EXISTED in previous nuschaos. And yet, almost all of us say gafen, aved, gaver (geshem has made a serious comeback). A mistake? Yes. But it is entrenched and accepted (find me an ashkenazic siddur that prints shelo asani eved), and to deligitimize it may be intellectually stimulating, but mezalzel bichvod our fathers and grandfathers, and it would be fruitless as well. That’s the way it developed and that’s the way it is now. We have bigger problems to solve than these.

    #621007

    Yanky55
    Member

    It is not legit. Who said that those holding immediately before shmoneh esrei cannot say amen? In fact the Rama holds you SHOULD say amen… “v’chain nohagim”.

    It is the Mechaber who says it is assur to answer amen at that point, but Ashkenazim generally follow the psak of the Rama.

    The minhug evolved not to answer amen in spite of the Rama’s psak, and the Mishna Brura’s solution (to accomodate both the Mechaber and the Rama) is to say tzur yisrael together with the shliach tzibbur being that one does not say amen to his own bracha.

    No one suggests that the shliach tzibbur should say it quietly. As I wrote earlier this is purely a minhag ta’us.

    #621008

    Yanky55
    Member

    Blue Shirt: You imply that this minhag could be generations or hundreds of years old.

    If that were the case, the Mishna Brura (or the Aruch Hashulchan) would certainly have mentioned it and given his opinion one way or the other.

    #621009

    ujm
    Participant

    This minhug is brought down is Sefer Minhagim (from the Rishonim). So it certainly is an old and recognized minhug.

    #621010

    blue shirt
    Participant

    To Yanky55,

    Thank you for encouraging me to look it up. Indeed, the Aruch Hashulchan mentions it twice (OH 66:16 and OH 111:2)and clearly states that the minhag is not to say amen after ga’al yisrael, against the Rama, but in accordance with the Mechaber and the Zohar. It is easy to see how this minhag encouraged shlichei tzibbur to lower their voices so as not to encourage answering amen. As I mentioned before, when I was a child, with the many shuls and dozens of shlichei tzibbur that I heard, the shatz always lowered his voice or was silent for the last two words of the bracha. I started to say this bracha out loud in high school (and have continued since), but my rebbe and rosh yeshiva, a brilliant lamdan and known iluy in the Telz yeshiva in Cleveland in the fifties, really let me have it when I did it as a shatz in school. He told me he knows what the Rama says and that is NOT the minhag that is practiced now. He saw it as gaivah on my part to go against the prevailing minhag.

    In any case, the sefer Tefillah Kehalacha ( this sefer has haskamos from Rav S.Z. Auerbach zt”l, Rav Elyashiv shlita, the Minchas Yitzchok zt”l, Rav Scheinberg shlita, Rav Halberstam, and Rav B.Z. Abba Shaul zt”l, certainly an All-Star lineup if I’ve ever seen one) mentions that Rav Henkin zt”l railed against chazanim who said the last two words silently. Obviously the minhag was prevalent if he felt the need to make a big deal out of it. In addition, Tefillah Kehalacha hints that the Chasan Sofer (Rav Shmuel Ehrenberg, grandson of the Chasam Sofer and great grandson of Rabbi Akiva Eiger) mentions this minhag. Although the Chasan Sofer is currently unavailable to me,I will try to check it out.

    Since the poskim generally were not in the habit of writing detailed descriptions of what exactly happened in their davening, it is not surprising that the specific information on this minhag is lacking. The Aruch Hashulchan does it occasionally, and the Mishna Brurah almost never.

    Hope this helps clarify things a bit.

    #621011

    Feif Un
    Participant

    According to many shitos, saying it quietly doesn’t help. That’s because many hold the halacha when it comes to brachos is that if you can’t hear someone make a bracha, but you know when the bracha was made, and you know exactly what bracha it was, you must answer amen to it. Therefore, when a chazzan says ga’al Yisrael quietly, you know when he said it, and which bracha it was, so you should answer anyway.

    #621012

    blue shirt
    Participant

    Feif Un,

    Valid point. To my mind, if it is a hefsek to answer amen, then the chiyuv to answer falls regardless of whether the bracha was made out loud or not.So again, I am not sure why saying it softly helps here. But the minhag was and still is widespread.

    #621013

    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    Yussel:

    The bracha of “Yotzer Ohr” ends with “Yotzer HaMeoros” to which everybody answers “amen”

    I know that. But some people think it end with “Uvoray Es Hakol”

    #621014

    clevlandboy
    Member

    Even though it is true that making the bracha silently does not help regarding answering amen, nevertheless it is a valid reminder to the tzibbur not to answer.

    #621015

    blue shirt
    Participant

    clevlandboy,

    you are correct, that probably contributed to the development of the minhag of saying the bracha silently

    #621016

    gonisoheiv
    Member

    The Mishna Brurah does give his opinion and give two aitzos. Look it up.

    Notice, I didn’t call anyone any names.

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