מאימתי קורין את שמע בערבית משעה שהכהנים נכנסין לאכול בתרומתן

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Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)
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  • #1818958

    knaidlach
    Participant

    Now you can say that you have started the 14th cycle of ש”ס.

    #1819025

    funnybone
    Participant

    Those of us by the siyum learned it already. Remember what R. Grand said last siyum, you need to learn something every day! A dad, an amud, a mishna or halacha, but YOU MIST LEARN SOMETHING!

    #1819065

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why does the SA start with day first? Maybe, currently krias shema and fefila are in place of the tamid where the day starts in the morning. The Chasam Sofer explains that by mitzvos the day comes first because of he opportunity in olam hazeh to do mitzvos יפה שעה אחת בעולם הזה מכל חיי עולם הבא but the mishna refers to the pasuk where night is first.

    #1819206

    Benephraim
    Participant

    The SA follows the סימנים of the טור.

    #1819218

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    So why does the Tur place day first? Also practically all mitzvos are performed in the day time. The pasuk goes after creation where night came before day as first is darkness, we suffer in olam hazeh and then light comes in olam habo.

    #1819223

    Benephraim
    Participant

    Try this out and see if you like this . The מקשן asks let it say שחרית first.So we see that the סברא חיצונה is morning first. Let me know how you feel about that .Otherwise the מקשןcan not justify his question.

    #1819224

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By the goyim day comes first , where they enjoy olam hazeh and then will be night in olam habo. The Hafloh explains that Avraham was able to keep shabbos as he worked on motzei shabbos.

    #1819228

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Benephraim, did you see Tosfas that by kodshim day comes first? When it comes to doing mitzvos, we follow this but by krias shema the pasuk goes after creation where night comes first. This can be the second answer of the gemora which might question the pasuk itself. We always start with light and not darkness פתח דברך יאיר.

    #1819239

    Benephraim
    Participant

    I see you dont like my רייד. Let me start again. Tosfos says it should be like תמיד where day is first. But it is a hard comparison because שמע has 2 options day and night and תמיד also has 2 options morning and afternoon. But the options of שמע dont match the options of תמיד. so how can the מקשן ask from תמיד to שמע. That is why I tell you that the מקשן comes with a סברא חיצונה. You also argue that in your own way by saying things like פתח יאיר and so on with your analigy to Goyim. Why should goyim be קובע the Halacha?

    #1819265

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Krias Shema is a mitzva like tamid. By a mitzva the day comes first. The answer is that the Torah puts night first when you are lieing on a bed and being. up. But why? Because over here night comes first as the creation of the world where night came first. There is an argument between the Rambam and Ramban how many mitzvos they are. The Rambam counts them as one whereas the Ramban as two because as the Shagas Aryeh explains that it is a time dependent mitzva as the time for day is different than the time for the night.

    #1819268

    Benephraim
    Participant

    RE הנכבד. I dont want to answer you directly because this is a coffee room etc and a public forum etc. Are you saying that whether we count שמע as one mitzvah or 2 mitzvahs has any bearing on הלכה? Similarly are you saying that whether we count the תמידיןas one mitzvah or 2 mitzvahs it has any practical difference at all. No one disputes the חיוב of 2xשמע. and 2x תמיד whether they count in מנין המצוות or not? All I said was that תמיד has no night component but שמע does . So as a result the comparison Tosfos makes needs a הסבר.

    #1819301

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I am not saying that the number makes a difference just because of the fact it is a mitzva (one or two) we start from the day like tamid as explained before from the Chasam Sofer.

    #1819304

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    To understand further what the connection is to tamid, there is a Yalkut Shimoni in Parashas Voeschanan brought by Rav Yanoson Steif ztz’l in his pesicha, 6 on Brochos:
    ילקוט שמעוני רמז תתלה
    גלוי וידוע לפני שבית המקדש עתיד ליחרב ומכאן ואילך אי אתם יכולין להקריב קרבנות, אלא מבקש אני תמורתן של קרבנות שמע ישראל בבקר שמע ישראל
    בערב ועולה לפני יותר מכל הקרבנו

    #1819341

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Could be that the korbonas indicate that we sacrifice ourselves for Hashem, see Ramban Vaykro (1,9), so is shema.

    #1819334

    Benephraim
    Participant

    The Yalkut you cited RE in the name of the Pester Rov shows the reverse. There is no connection to תמיד but rather to קרבנות in general. Also the Yalkut needs a הסבר as to why שמע is better. You are a great resource of מאמרי חזל.

    #1819386

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Benephraim, The sefer of the Pester Rov ztz’l Chadoshim Gam Yeshonim on Brochos is available on hebrewbooks.org.

    #1819389

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Pester Rav ztz’l brings down this Midrash in the above:

    בעין יעקב בהקדמת הכותב, וז”ל: בן זומא אומר מצינו פסוק כולל, והוא: שמע ישראל ה’ אלקינו ה’ אחד. בן ננס אומר מצינו פסוק כולל יותר, והוא: ואהבת לרעך כמוך. ר’ שמעון בן פזי אומר מצינו פסוק כולל יותר, והוא: את הכבש האחד תעשה בבוקר. עמד ר”פ על רגליו ואמר הלכה כבן פזי משום שנאמר ככל
    אשר אני מראה אותך בהר וגו’ וכן תעשו עכ”ל המדרש, .

    This Midrash connects somewhat shema at tamid.

    The Kaftor Voferach writes that Rav Chaim from Paris wanted to sacrifice a korban pesach in the beginning of the six thousand millenium. The Chasam Sofer and Rav Akiva Eiger ztz’l discuss in great length how this is possible, but how is it he did not want to be makriv a tamid? So the Chasan Sofer answers that needs unity from the tzibur through shiklei tzibur which currently is not available. I think this explains why we include shekolim in the daf yomi. As it will remind us of the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdash when we will be able to bring the tamid again. So tamid is a unifying korban and therefore krias shma which we all say together corresponds to it. Rav Moshe ztz’l holds that smonei esrei said quietly together is tefila betzibur like the korban pesach.

    #1819403

    Benephraim
    Participant

    Dear RE. you do not disappoint. Your בקיאות is עד להפליא. May you be zoche to be mesayem with the same kochos and more. I wanted to be by the קבר של צדיק in Woodbridge. I thought in a while but my cousin was just נפטר and the משפחה is heading over as I write. We can say that שפתותיו דובבות בקבר. May we be זוכה to bring קרבנות as well. אכיר.

    #1819433

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I am Wiener talmud but I came to America after he was niftar. My parents and my wife are burried in the same cemetery.

    #1819435

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Benephraim, see the other threads Start of Shas and שהכל נהי-ה בדברו.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by  Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by  Reb Eliezer.
    #1819458

    Benephraim
    Participant

    RE . you learned yet by the Hudhaizer? Reb Avram Chaim ?

    #1819476

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I learned in 1959 by the Rav Holtzer ztz’l, Rav Yishai Direnfeld, Rav Spitzer, Rav Bernfeld ztz’l and the Hadhauser Rav Lebovits ztz’l then in 1963 I left the Wiener in Williamsburg and went to learn in Chasan Sofer Mattersdorf (both rebbies ztz’l) on the East Side and then they moved to Boro Park. I never learned by Rav Avraham Chaim Spitzer ztz’l.

    #1819507

    Benephraim
    Participant

    What about Harav Tyrnauer?

    #1819535

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    No, I never learned by him. I learned together with his sons.

    #1819540

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I learned together by the Hadhauser ztz’l with Wiener Dayan in Monsey, Rav Menachem Fischer shlita and Rav Binyomin Gruber Shlita , Rav Hamachshir at CRC in Chasan Sofer.

    #1819541

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I also learned together with Rav Noach Eisick Oellbaum of Queens in Chasan Sofer being a talmid chaver of his.
    See his Haggadah Minchas Chein.

    #1819550

    Benephraim
    Participant

    You really have a strong מסורה of Torah. What about Rav Paler.? Did you learn by him in Chasan Sofer? I am distantly related to the Ehrenfeld family and the Kraus family.But you are an Oberlander it seems. Was Rav Binyamin Gruber related to Satmar Rov’s nephew in Canarsie? He was Rav Avram Zev Gruber. Rav Shpitzer came from Bessermin I think and went to Mt. Kisco . He quoted the Shopraner Rov often as well as the Litvishe like Reb Ruven Grozovsky.

    #1819551

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    In the misnah it says בערבין in plural. Why plural? Ths Tosfas Chadoshim on misnah explains according to the Rabbenu Taam, there are two nights, two shkiyos. Ths GRA in Shnos Eliyohu, who does not follow the Rabbenu Taam but the geonim, says that the two nights start by the afternoon when the sun turns west and the shkia.

    #1819560

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I was born in Sopron and learned by Rav Simcha Bunim ztz’l who learned by Rav Paler ztz’l, so I had a taste of the litvishe Chakiros. I don’t know Gruber’s relationshps. I don’t know which Spitzer you are referring to. Which Kraus?, In my time the Rav of Sopron was from Monsey, Rav Aharon Meir Krausz originally immigrated to Sydney, Australia. He is a son in law of Rav Tzitron from Hajdu Dorog. The Soproner Rav, Rav Shimon Posen ztz’l already was in America. Rav Paler ztzl, the brother in law of Rav Ehrenfeld ztz’l, left the yeshiva and formed his own yeshiva, Mekor Chaim.

    #1819562

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why does the misnah say קורין in plural? Explains the GRA there that evey person has to lein krias shma on his own and cannot be yotzeh from someone else.

    #1819568

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Kohanim lein krias shma before eating truma when they are able to eat.

    #1819573

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Shagas Aryeh 1, explains the view that krias shma is derabonon means that min hatorah we can say any divrei torah but the chazal designated to say krias shma.

    #1819684

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The word מאימתי instead ממתי is very interesting. It is aramaic indicating that one person comunicates with Hashem as the malochim don’t want to understand it. It says הפך בה הפך בה why twice? Could be, first indicating that we should repeat what we learned more than once. The Ben Ish Chai explains that someone might turn around the Torah by questioning it, but don’t leave it like that. Turn it back. The word מאימתי, I was told, is not immutable through את-בש as the word צדקה which cannot be destroyed, but it turns itself back. All the letters
    are included in the word.

    #1820799

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The chasiddishe seforim say that מאימתי also means from fear.

    #1820824

    Benephraim
    Participant

    Also a yid is chayav to say שמע even in the darkness of. ערבין which is גלות. you RE are an inspiration in תורה as well as Chassidishe Toyreh.

    #1820841

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasan Sofer explains why we say that tefila at night is optional. A person should not only daven at night when it is going bad for him. It is more important to daven, give thanks and not to take for granted, when he is doing good. The Ramban holds that בעת צרה is a mitzva min hatorah to daven. The Mesilas Yeshorim says that a child who loves his father anticipates what he wants. Over here he waited when davening was necessary, so it becomes an obligation.

    #1820840

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Benephraim, the Chasan Sofer interprets כל הסומך גאולה לתפילה של ערבית מובטח לו שהוא בן עולם הבא ואינו ניזוק כל אותו היום people are hurting him by questioning why isn’t Meshiach coming? He knows that at the time of galus the redemption is dependent on the proper tefila and that will calm him down and won’t feel harmed. The Rabbenu Yonah says a similar interpretation on והסר ממנו יגון ואנחה asking that we should not be depressed and saddened by thinking that Meshiach has not come yet.

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