July 19, 2022 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2107211
It was very painful to read the recent article about the life of the Texas killer. (https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2107010/texas-killer-earned-ominous-nickname-school-shooter.html).
Are we allowed to feel רחמנות for such a person?
Is it okay if we condemn the deed, but at the same time blame the system for messing up so badly on a poor student?
Obviously, everyone is ALWAYS held accountable for their actions, no matter what situation they are in. But are we able to judge someone who went through that? How can we know what we would do (חס ושלום) if we were in his shoes?
I am not expressing an opinion, I am just confused. Maybe if more people recognized the pain of these suffering youth, we can do more to actually prevent these acts (besides for just advocating for taking-away-everyone’s-guns/giving-everyone-guns).July 19, 2022 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2107278
“Maybe if more people recognized the pain of these suffering youth, we can do more to actually prevent these acts“
I think instilling in them fear of G-D and authority would prevent it tooJuly 19, 2022 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2107279smerelParticipant
Did he have a hard life? Yes
Will Hashem take his past into account? Yes
As humans should we give him the death penalty anyway? Also yes
Only Hashem can truly judge people. We for our part need to be careful not to give free passes for people to harm others because of the difficulties they had in life.July 19, 2022 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #2107286kollelmanParticipant
Agree with @smerel. On this world, we have rules. Hashem told us how to deal with situations. Hashem will ultimately deal with him as needed.July 19, 2022 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #2107283
אדם מועד לעולם he should know right from wrong.July 19, 2022 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #2107292
It says by ihr hanidachas ונתן לך רחמים, Hashem will give you mercy, and the GRA explains that we might get used to cruelty (which here is required), so we get blessed to be merciful. So don’t worry to apply cruelty like your case where necessary. It says ובערת הרע מקרבך, we have a responsibility to eliminate the bad in order others should not learn from it and he should not repeat his bad deeds.July 19, 2022 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #2107297
OP: Maybe Hitler had a rough childhood in school and even in home life.July 19, 2022 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #2107295
אין לבית דין אלא מה שעיניו רואות, the Beis Din follows what it sees. We cannot show any mercy.July 19, 2022 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #2107315
כל המרחם במקום אכזריות סופו לאכזר במקום רחמניות
The reason being is because it comes from the same placeJuly 19, 2022 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #2107330
coffee addict your quote is very important, so I will translate it.
Whoever is merciful when should be cruel, the end will be, that one will be cruel when should be merciful.July 19, 2022 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #2107371
CA: Your quote aptly describes the liberals.July 19, 2022 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #2107391
And Reb eliezer agrees with it!
Democrats are מרחם when it comes to bail reform so it’s understandable that they are cruel when it comes to abortions (or even to arresting a bodega owner)
It all comes from the same placeJuly 19, 2022 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2107411
When I wrote רחמנות – I was talking more in our personal feelings. Obviously, the court of law has no right to take such things into account when it comes to delivering punishment. Forgiving crime is Hashem’s job, not ours.
“I think instilling in them fear of G-D and authority would prevent it too”
I agree, this is the root of the issue. If we recognize that most violence stems from confusion and pain, we understand that we can counter it by educating the youth to have a true value system and moral guide to help them overcome these feelings.
This is only possible through the recognition that there is a Higher Power that watches every act that we do and cares for us to behave properly. This is the truest form of accountability.July 20, 2022 11:19 am at 11:19 am #2107553HaLeiViParticipant
Of course we have Rachmanus on a murderer. That’s why ברור לו מיתה יפה.July 20, 2022 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #2107735interjectionParticipant
I feel terrible for the mass murderer. It seems he had a tragic life and was tormented by his peers.
That doesn’t give him the right to go and kill people.July 21, 2022 12:37 am at 12:37 am #2107739interjectionParticipant
To continue what I said, with almost every criminal, there was a trajectory of unfortunate circumstances in the perps life, until he eventually commits a terrible crime. Obviously bad things happened to him, whether from others or perhaps mental illness. None of these things are permission to ruin other’s lives or even to cause pain to others. The world community requires people to behave in ways that do not endanger others and respects people’s rights to their own possessions. Without these boundaries, the world cannot continue existing. We can feel terrible for those who were not blessed with healthy families or stable communities, and we should try to spread positivity. But there are red lines and some behaviors cannot be tolerated.July 21, 2022 12:58 am at 12:58 am #2107742
Stealing to provide for the family might be excusable but murder if not for self defense is not as there is no personal benefit under any other condition.July 21, 2022 9:00 am at 9:00 am #2107763
@Reb Eliezer, no one is trying to EXCUSE it, we are trying to UNDERSTAND it. Understanding it could better help us prevent it (as opposed to just protesting for technical regulations, such as gun-control/anti-gun-control).July 21, 2022 9:10 am at 9:10 am #2107826jackkParticipant
It comes from the same place. The place is called the constitution of the US.July 21, 2022 9:10 am at 9:10 am #2107832
Poor Mr. Hitler. What a horrible childhood. No wonder he did what he did.July 21, 2022 9:18 am at 9:18 am #2107841nishtdayngesheftParticipant
Neither bail reform (letting multiple/mass offenders out without bail) nor the right to abortion at anytime for any reason are rights in the constitution.
Not even Roe V. Wade, ever said that abortion at any time for any reason is a constitutional right.July 21, 2022 10:01 am at 10:01 am #2107844
The body is judged together with the neshama as the two people, one blind one lame, who picked fruit off a tree, the blind holding the lame on his shoulders. No one by themselves could commit the crime. The murderer and the gun are together responsible as this parable. Guns don’t kill, people do, but maybe people don’t kill, guns do.July 21, 2022 11:58 am at 11:58 am #2107891jackkParticipant
Read the Eight and Fourteen Amendments.July 21, 2022 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #2107967
“The murderer and the gun are together responsible as this parable“
Are you saying people can’t get killed other ways? (Ie car, knife….)July 21, 2022 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #2107979
I was talking about mass murder as the OP and not killed that is currently mostly through an assault weapon. If murder is committed through other means, than obviously both are responsible but dibra hakasuv behove, we are speaking of the most current common means of mass murder. One murdering by oneself is responsible alone.July 21, 2022 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #2107980GefilteFishParticipant
It’s worth noting the contrast between Divine punishment and an earthly court.
It’s brought down that the Beis Din shel Maala only punishes someone once they turn 20.
This is in contrast with the beis din shel matah, which will execute a youth once he is Bar Mitzvah.
The reason is because the Heavenly Court can judge a person’s intent, mental state etc. A person hasn’t fully finished developing until 20 years old; so the Heavenly Court can take those factors into account and delay or mitigate his punishment.
In contrast, a beis din is all about the action. If a person committed an aveirah which carries the death penalty, then (assuming witnesses hasraah etc.) we will kill him based on his actions.
The fact that he struggled maturity wise is irrelevant down here. We need to put an end to these sorts of actions, and the Torah teaches us that the way to “eradicate the evil” is by executing the wicked.
So while we could feel rachmanus for the sort of life the murderer has experienced, we still should execute him. The Rachmanus should not be a factor when establishing him punishment- even though it’s very possible that the Divine Court may take it into account.July 21, 2022 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #2107993
GefilteFish very well expressed what I alluded to above. For the Beis Din דברים שבלב אינן דברים does not care what one is thinking as they don’t know. We see this from Tzalafchad who really did not deserve to die as it was a chilul shabbos to protect shabbos, a negative work by not requiring the fruits of his labor rather teaching people the punishment for it but once admonished we don’t care what his intentions were.
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