שנאת חינם

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  • #2104317
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    If anyone is wondering why is the בית המקדש & משיח not here yet just look at comments trashing people that are defending the other side’s leader

    Will שנאת חינם ever be erased before משיח comes?

    #2104378
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Unfortunately, we are learning from the goyim to look at everything externally. We decide if we should love other Yidden based on their opinions, who they vote for, how up to par they are in avodas Hashem, etc.
    If we start looking at everything from a Torah point of view, we will only see other Yidden as pure neshamos whom we must love as true brothers.
    At the same time, Hashem doesn’t need us to defend Him for not sending Moshiach. If we try to do everything we can to add in ahavas yisroel, we can demand from Hashem that enough is enough. (מדרש תהלים פי”ז. חפץ חיים על הסידור סי’ קסח. ועוד )

    #2104387
    yungermanS
    Participant

    With all due respect lets face the truth and reality.

    HOW CAN WE EXPECT HASHEM-OUR BELOVED FATHER THE KING OF KINGS AND RULER OF THE ENTIRE WORLD-TO SEND US THE GEULA WITH MASHIACH COMING WHEN IN TRUTH THE SINAS CHINAM TODAY IS WORSE THEN WHEN THE SECOND BAIS HAMIKDOSH WAS DESTROYED BECAUSE OF SINAS CHINAM?

    anyone have a true honest answer?
    I.e. a person can’t expect life to be served on a silver platter when he doesn’t do his part to earn and deserve it.

    May we all wake ourselves up to serious Teshuva and Achdus ASAP and work on our Ahavas Chinam so we can all show Hashem our worthiness for Mashiach to come very soon

    #2104413
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    What is שנאת חנם? The Yad Yosef on the Ein Yaakov Yamo (9,2) explains what it says that the second Beis Hamikdash’ destruction came about because of it. It is a שנאה הכבושה בלב, it is hatred bottled up in the heart. The Torah forbids hatred in the heart and wants us to admonish each other when one was wronged. Sometimes hatred like jealousy, which is not an excusable hatred, is not revealed but hidden by acting towards the other like one loves them. We cannot protect ourselves from the other as this hatred is not known. This hatred will last forever and will not be undone. As this hatred lasts forever so does the galus. So we should love each other just for the fact that we are all children of one father, Hashem and then bring the geula speedily in our time, Amen.

    #2104419
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    YungermanS,

    WHEN IN TRUTH THE SINAS CHINAM TODAY IS WORSE THEN WHEN THE SECOND BAIS HAMIKDOSH WAS DESTROYED BECAUSE OF SINAS CHINAM?

    How do you know that? Back then there were צדוקים, בריונים, פרושים how’s that different than reform, conservative, orthodox?

    Reb eliezer

    “What is שנאת חנם? The Yad Yosef on the Ein Yaakov Yamo (9,2) explains what it says that the second Beis Hamikdash’ destruction came about because of it. It is a שנאה הכבושה בלב, it is hatred bottled up in the heart.“

    So קמצא ובר קמצא wasn’t שנאת חינם?

    #2104436
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Baal Habayis kept his hatred inside his heart and acted on it and the chachomim did not say anything that is שנאת חנם. Kamtzeh did not know why he is being ostracized. The Meharsha says that the son was invited.

    #2104447
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    כבר הבטיחה תורה שסוף ישראל לעשות תשובה בסוף גלותן, ומיד הן נגאלין (רמב”ם הל’ תשובה פ”ז ה”ה)

    On the contrary, specifically in these last days of golus, the ס”מ tries its hardest to infiltrate our hearts and arouse שנאת חנם. Now we have the greatest נסיון, and we must each try to overcome it in our own life.
    Regarding everyone else who we can’t control, let’s just daven that Hashem remove the שנאה from their hearts. Eliyahu Hanovi’s job is לעשות שלום בעולם (see רבמ”ם הלכות מלכים פי”ב ה”ב).

    #2104458
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    @cofee addict:
    The sinas chinam of 2nd temple was NOT between Rabbis and tzadoqin.
    We are SUPPOSED to hate the Reshaim – and even put them to death if that is according to the law of G-D.
    rather, the sinas chinam of 2nd temple was BETWEEN Torah observant jews and each other.
    kamtza and bar kamtza and the bal habayis were all frum jews

    #2104484
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Thank you, Chaylev…

    #2104504
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I see,

    So how was there שנאה if they had the same מהלך, nowadays I can understand because you have sfardi ashkenazi, different sects of chassidim but why was there שנאת חינם back then?

    #2104508
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Not to mention democrats and republicans

    #2104519
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The goal is avodas Hashem, serving Hashem. How one does that is up to the person, so there is no reason to hate each other.

    #2104533
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “How one does that is up to the person, so there is no reason to hate each other.“

    Well unhealthy self esteem (גאוה) comes into play over here, if I see someone else doing something different in עבודת ה׳ I’m going to think he’s doing it wrong because if he isn’t then I am, and that bothers me (not me, I hope you get what I am saying)

    #2104635
    Kuvult
    Participant

    B”H I live in a place where as one Ruv put it, “Our communities Mesorah is Shalom and Achdus.” Seeing Modern Orthodox and Chasidish Shuls doing joint celebrations is heart warming. When the Chasidish Rebbes, Agudah Ruvs, and the Modern Rabbi that uses a microphone and has a minimum Mechitza and open parking lot all work together with Kavod and Shalom it sends a powerful message to the Kehilla. But what really gets me high is seeing school videos where Modern Orthodox, Yeshivish and Chasidish children all go to school together. When I read in other places people argue how children need to go to separate schools based on shirt color, Shul they Daven at, shetiel length, etc. it breaks my heart since I don’t understand why and its surely keeping Moshiach away.

    #2104658
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Kuvult: At the same time, we must learn to separate the Jew from his ideology. Just because we love and accept the Jew himself, that does not mean that we agree with him whatsoever.

    There are times when children must go to separate schools because of different chinuch standards. This does not mean that the Chasidish Jew looks at the MO Jew as any less Jewish, yet he doesn’t want the MO education and values to be imparted to his son.

    Moshiach will come no matter what, but we will definitely bring him faster through:
    1) holding on to our own derech without bending one iota, and 2) overlooking the differences between Jews, and loving every Jew as a true brother (the fact that you don’t agree with your brother doesn’t mean you love him any less).

    #2104681
    ujm
    Participant

    Kuvult: What about shalom and achdus with the Open Orthodox?

    #2104757

    Menachem, one issue here that I start realizing: do we always have to have education filled with Jewish politics? On one hand, it is convenient to have teachers substitute for parents telling the kids that their rebbe/derech are the only kosher ones. On the other hand, in many places parents may not have exactly same shitot as a particular 5th grade rebbe. In this case, school is helping the lower part of the class whose parents can’t formulate their derech, but hurts the other half who have to work correcting the kid, or see their kids growing up as a carbon copy of the movement.. I find schools or teachers who “simply” teach Torah and derech eretz the best.

    #2104797
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Always,
    Not knowing it was unusual, that’s how we (boys and girls) grew up. The schools were very diverse so they didn’t teach hashkafa only Torah and Middle. Not surprisingly, the Chasidim turned out Chasidish, the Yeshivish turned out Yeshivish and the Modern turned out Modern. Hashkafa is best taught at home by the parents. That way as a parent you know they’re getting the exact message you want to send without getting frustrated the school is teaching things (to your right or left) that you don’t agree with.

    #2104792
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Ujm,
    It depends who. Open Orthodox was used to attack an entire movement without looking into it. Most “Chovivei Torah” Rabbanim are no different than other Orthodox Rabbanim in core beliefs. A Chovivei Rabbi here wrote & the other one signed how much this accusation bothered him and that he was taught & believes in Torah M’Sinai, Baal Peh passed down and binding going back to Moshe, etc. (While admitting some of the Rabbis had problematic beliefs). These Rabbis are accepted here (why not) and are considered part of the community. For others you don’t sit with them discussing different versions of Halacha, but there’s still Shalom & Achdus sitting with the Reform and Conservative Rabbis to discuss policies that affect the entire Jewish community.

    #2104808
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    AAQ- we all understand how painful that personal experience you had with your child (I think you said daughter?) was for you and how you have not only been unable to move forward, but have decided to apply it to all the school system. On the other hand I am sorry for your daughter who was not allowed to grow because of your bias against the “movement” she was becoming a “carbon copy of”, to the point that you pulled them out and are afraid of them learning too much from the wrong people.
    To be a “responsible” parent (as you like to call the ones who step out of their box to get educated), it sometimes takes swallowing your biases and letting your kids grow.

    #2104832

    Kuvult,
    I would also add that you don’t have to belong to any of the movements at all. Yes, there is a minhag of davening and wearing a kittel, but there is no reason why one needs to pledge allegiance to one way of learning and thinking. This is devaluing Torah and making it into a tool of building group-think.

    Maybe we are assimilated into American freedom of association and “factions” leading to a free market of ideas, so we also divided into groups competing ideologically. In these terms, separating by the style of the hat leads to market segmentation, every movement controlling their own institutions, same way Apple controls macs and iphones. From the POV of consumers, if parents see more schools acceptable hashkafically, there will be more competition and more value for parents, as intended in halakha (competition is limited in regular trade, but unlimited among teachers and perfume peddlers),

    #2104835

    Syag,
    I shared some of my experiences to provide testimony for discussions of most important part of Jewish life, education. Saying that my opinions are wrong because they are based on my experiences does not add much to the discussion.

    Some of the value in that information is that some information comes out of the mouths of principals when there is a disagreement. So, you can assess whether this applies to your institutions without going thru the same painful steps. I absolutely do not think that all schools have these problems, or that the same schools do not have positive sides.

    #2104851
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Kuvult,

    Do you ever come into NY (Flatbush, BP, Monsey) and kvetch how people are behaving?

    #2104848
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Saying that my opinions are wrong because they are based on my experiences does not add much to the discussion.”
    I didn’t say that your opinions are wrong because they are based on your experiences. I said you are wrong in generalizing it, as you often do, to the school system. And I said I believe it is wrong to yank your kid because they are getting too frum for your comfort. Which flows nicely into my response to your next post – you are tasting this wonderful way to be committed to Noone and nothing but your own comfortable cherry picked customs and halachos. Call it cultists and group think to make it work for you but we call it a tzibur.

    #2104850

    Syag > afraid of them learning too much from the wrong people.

    Are you advocating for kids being sent to public or open-modern schools with no supervision? I think our whole educational system is built on shielding kids from bad influences and you seem to agree with that. Consider, as an illustration, a poster here who is a teacher and tends to feel very negative towards any derech except his. I can imagine him being my kid’s Rebbe and I would come very satisfied about his knowledge and middos based on a short discussion. At some point, i would notice that the kid is becoming less and less tolerant and becoming stubborn in his Jewish and political views. Ok, I guess I can wait until he grows into his 20s, and then, I can talk with him as an adult and train him into better thinking. I would feel the same if the teacher will have modern or zionist or chassidic biases.

    #2104857
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Always_Ask_Quesions – “I find schools or teachers who “simply” teach Torah and derech eretz the best”

    Exactly! You find that education the best, therefore YOU should send your kids to such a school.

    How do you define “derech eretz”? If it means that when they grow up the children should go to college, get a degree, and that will make them a fine yungerman – many people will not want to send their kids to your school, because college etc. goes against their entire hashkafa.

    You might not want to send your kids to a school that teaches that Jews must grow beards (although this is an obligation according to many, many poskim from all sides of the chasidish/litvish spectrum), or a school that focuses on staying separate from the אומות.

    Obviously, you can’t find a school that has every single hashkafa exactly the same as yours, which is why you must take an active role in educating your children, but you want a school that fits your derech for the most part.

    #2104858
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Coffee Addict
    Yes, Why?
    My sibling lives in very Frum Monsey. She came to visit and we went to a cafe. She looked around and saw Chasidim with their Tzitzis over their shirts at one table, another table had a group of Yeshiva boys but there was also tables with knit yarmulkes, as well as Conservative and Reform Jews with no yarmulkes and women dressed far from any tznius standard. My sibling said, “It’s so nice there are so many different types of Jews here and they all get along.” Why isn’t that happening in Monsey and everywhere else?

    #2104874
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Are you advocating for kids being sent to public or open-modern schools with no supervision?”
    Please indicate where I imply this. Your quote above it was your excuse for removing your kids, not my assessment of the situation.

    “Ok, I guess I can wait until he grows into his 20s, and then, I can talk with him as an adult and train him into better thinking.”

    If your kid has one teacher in 5th grade with good middos but intolerance and that is how she has chosen 20 years later to fashion herself after than you have some serious parenting issues here. I believe that is what they call a strawman argument.

    #2104888
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Yes, Why?“

    Because that’s שנאת חינם against NYers

    #2104904

    Menachem, good questions. I think a school should have separate classes for those who are preparing for college and those who will go into learning/teaching. Making them sit in a common “math” class is torturing both. This can be partially augmented with online assignments. I would have no problem if school teachers halochos of beards, mentioning what the approaches are. I realize it would be tedious to be inclusive without getting ridiculous, but it is possible. I heard for example a Sephardi chacham routinely say Ashkenazim do this, we do that… Beit Hillel used to do this and even shulchan aruch is written this way … Really if you focus on classical Jewish texts, you can teach them without being divisive most of the time.

    #2104906
    Kuvult
    Participant

    It’s not against NYers. Its against how they act and I don’t hate them at all. I just wish some would act better with Ahavas Yisroel and getting along. So many here say they want to end Sinas Chinan BUT BUY BUT BUT BUT if my neighbors kids go to a different school with a different Hashkafa they can’t be friends with my kids. My kids are Yeshivish, they can’t be in school with more moderns kids.
    It’s simple, don’t judge a Yid by their Hashkafa judge them by whether they’re a Mensch.
    A man here died. He was the president of Mizrachi for 30 years and worked hard for Bnei Akiva and other Zionist programs. He also help found a Modern Orthodox coed Zionist school.
    The Ruv who gave the Heaped was a Senior Yeshivish Rabbi. This person was shocked and speechless. A very prominent Yeshiva Ruv is giving the Hesped for the president of Mizrachi? The Ruv started, “While he and I disagreed on many issues I always held him in the highest regard.” The man was a Mensch and did what he did lshma so why wouldn’t the Frum Ruv have a good relationship with him? That exudes Shalom and Achdus.

    #2104912
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Always_Ask_Questions:
    Halevai we should be on such a level that everything is a matter of black and white opinion in seforim. But the problem is:

    1) Unfortunately we are human. Most people will be nuanced in their teaching. If a teacher is of the opinion that l’poel one should have a beard, he will lean towards those poskim, thus affending the parents who don’t hold of that.
    If the teacher does not have a beard, you can’t exactly trust him to give an objective shiur about the importance of beards.

    2) Children will be confused. They must be guided by one general derech. It is obviously okay for them to see some diversity, but you can’t confuse them with completely different hashkofos and have their parents decide what is right.

    Imagine a teacher is giving a class about tziyonus: “Children, Reb Menachem Kasher teaches that every Jew is obligated to be עולה to Eretz Yisroel and support the government there. The Satmar Rebbe holds that the state is מעשה שטן. Now, go ask your parents which opinion you should hold.”

    This resembles more a public school education where everything is pure facts, and anything that is related to values and morals is banned from the classroom. We believe that schools should first and foremost educate our children with the proper hashkafos of how to be an ehrliche Yid, and for that you need a school that follows your outlook.

    ” I think a school should have separate classes…”
    How is this any different from separate schools? If anything this only causes more machlokes and less achdus between children!
    (“Oh, your parents sent you to that class? They must be treife college fans”)

    #2104913
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Always,
    Why especially in K-8 can’t kids on track to go to a more modern school, then college (after 1-2 years in Israel) and a more Yeshivish kid on track to go to a Yeshiva HS, Bais Medrash and Kollel go to school together? That’s how it was when I went and it’s still that way. Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky said, “A child doesn’t lose their Ruach Hakodesh because they’re sitting next to a child from a family with less religious commitment.”

    #2104914
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “It’s not against NYers. Its against how they act and I don’t hate them at all.“

    Anything stating how we are different (as long as they aren’t רשעים as noted above) is שנאת חינם

    I’m originally from OOT and used to get upset at how NYers acted but I’ve learned to accept them based on their upbringing

    Just like irreligious and non yeshivish can’t be faulted because they grew up that way so to NYers grew up differently than you and their actions should be accepted

    #2104919

    Kuvult,
    a wonderful story – except your shock :). So, presumably this respect was not so visible during the lifetime … There are probably limits to publicly acceptable cooperation. When I was younger, I once offered a Rav a possible joint action with another nearby Rav who was involved in a related activity. He looked at me with a wise smile and said – Cooperate?! Baruch Hashem, we learned how not to impede each other … I analyzed the scene again and understood that they were actually doing that!

    #2104933
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Always,
    I guess I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t shocked it was someone from out of town. I know it goes on like the video of 3 Modern Orthodox Rabbis, 1 Modern Yeshivish Rabbi and a Chasidish Rabbi making a joint celebration at the Shul that also has a huge Yom Hatzmoat event.

    #2104934
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Menachem,
    That’s why schools shouldn’t teach Hashkafa. They should only teach Torah and Middos. I saw school videos. The YU Ruv of a Modern Zionist shul talked about Torah (No Hashkafa), the Yeshivish Ruv spoke about Torah (No Hashkafa) and the Chasidish Rebbe spoke about Torah (No Hashkafa).
    It sends a clear message to the Talmidim. You don’t have to agree with a Rebbes Hashkafa (knowing his Shul), you don’t have to become a member of his Shul, but you do have to respect him as a Ruv in the community and you do have to get along with the kids that do Daven there. A great message for when they’re adults about getting along.

    #2104958

    Kuvult, sorry I misunderstood. I had a similar case where I called a chabad house where I wanted to stay as I had a conference on Friday. He was curious of my background and asked: are you a, b, or c? I answered: Jewish. He abruptly stopped questions, laughed and said, of course you are welcome to come. It was a wonderful place.

    #2104967

    Menachem,. you are right, there is a limit to diversity, such as pluralistic schools that give options from reform to chasidut.. but if much of your school curriculum is spent on beards … I had kids in a chasidish school with many yeshivish teachers and almost none of them tried to impress kids into their derech, at least not to the degree that affected kids. And it is really good for the kids to know that there are other opinions. It may be personal decision to what degree you want to introduce it, but you should. It is really right there in my gemora: beit Hillel and beit shammai would marry each other by warning if someone would be a mamzer by the other opinion. Check yours, it might say the same.

    #2104969

    What is this dichotomy between modern and yeshivish? You are denying first group serious learning, or making it unaffordable and inappropriate by pushing them into expensive private schools, and you are denying second group a possibility of leading normal life earning relatively easy living. Any big school had 2 or more levels for some subjects, there is no reason some levels are college track and others are not, some are kollel track, and others are not. Kids should not be confused that some are going to be rabbis and some lawyers, and some both.

    #2105006
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Always_Ask_Questions, @Kuvult

    It would be nice if everyone could takeh come together to learn. Although it would take lots of effort to accomplish such a think.

    At the same time, maybe the highest level of achdus is to realize that no matter how different we are, we are all one guf. For foot treatment I go to a podiatrist. For my heart I go to a cardiologist. For my teeth I go to a dentist.

    My foot doesn’t get offended that my heart doesn’t go to the same doctor as it. We feel perfectly at peace with the fact that we each have our own function and our own needs, and we live in harmony as one body. (besides for my right ear, it gets a bit narcissistic at times!)

    If children could go to different schools, get very different values and hashkofos, and still be taught the infinite value of every single Yid, and that without what every Yid brings to the table we would all be incomplete – that would be an incredible step toward achdus and the geula!

    #2105103
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They say עני’ רוגב על חנוור’ are the hardest meseches, ערובין, נדה and יבמות. It will bring people together as they need each other to understand it and each mesechta has to do with unity. The highest נדה, the closest between husband and wife, מחבבות על בעלה. Separation brings them closer together. The second is יבמות, unifying the family and the last is ערובין which brings Jews together by allowing them to carry things to each other. Learning these meseches helps to bring Meshiach. Learning together eliminates שנאת חנם, futile hatred.

    #2105121
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Mods, the above should be עני רוכב על החמור. The Aim Habanim Semacha says that Meshiach will come slowly in stages like a poor person comes on a donkey. First go to EY then build the Beis Hamikdash. Whereas the Minchas Elozor, the rebbi of the above Rav Teichtal, Hy’d, says that Meshiach comes spontaneously as ישועת ה’ כהרף עין, the help of Hashem is like the blink of an eye, speedily, so we don’t do anything besides eliminating שנאת חנם.

    #2105130
    Kuvult
    Participant

    When I see a Bar Mitzvah video at a very large school and a boy with no hat or jacket and a sports logo on his yarmulke is next to a boy with a hat and jacket, I think Wonderful! When the pictures have boys with no hat or jacket, a boy with a jacket but no hat and a boy in a white shirt black pants and hat and jacket I think Wonderful! When I see a boy with a knit yarmulkes (with the metal clip on each side) sharing a Siddur with a boy who has a buzz cut and long curly Peyos it warms my heart. This is how Yiddishkeit is supposed to be. This is what brings Moshiach.

    #2105169

    Menachem > If children could go to different schools, get very different values and hashkofos, and still be taught the infinite value of every single Yid,

    Agreed. But I think we still “naturally” tend towards hurtful separation. As R Berel Wein says: if a city has 100 Jews, he wants them to have 1 shul with 100 ppl, what do Jews do – they form 10 shuls with 10 people each, and they end up with 11 shuls, 9 people each …

    As to school economics, separation begets monopoly and corresponding decrease in quality and choices and increase in price. Tzadikim in charge of school can mitigate some of it but the general trends exist. Purely theoretical, for example, the pre-war Litvish system, from my limited understanding, worked better. R Kamenetsky and R Ruderman had a 2nd grade Rebbe who once suspected R Kamenetsky of lying – and these Talmidei Chachamim blamed him for preventing others in their class to become Talmidei Cachamim. But this Rebbe was not part of the school system that promulgated bad middos – he was teaching just 2nd grade in his yard. So, presumably they got a great 3rd grade rebbe… So, if, by some organizational magic, parents had choices between individual teachers rather than “school systems”, probably parents will have a better match to their needs and lower price. Increasing competition rather than forming oligarchies that partition the market by catering to different population segments. Econ 101, as described in by Bava Basra.

    #2105205
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Meharal says that when we put water next to fire, water puts out the fire but when we put the water in a pot, the fire heats the water. So sometimes we have to be careful when mixing. More religious can be influenced from less religious. We should not hate them but we should avoid mixing also.

    #2105209
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Always,
    I never understood this concept of “Tzadikim” owning or running their own school like I
    see in some places. The boys and girls schools I’m aware of are community schools not “Owned” by anyone. The school has a Hanala which handles the day to day operations. A Vaad HaRabbanim made of a diverse mix of Rabbis whose parents in their Shul sends their kids there and a Vaad HaChinuch made up of a diverse group of parents with kids there. They all have to answer to each other so no one can do anything extreme. Parents whose kids are college bound make sure the Secular education is top notch without going to far. Parents whose kids are on a Kollel path push for top notch Lemudei Chol without going to far. All the parents but especially the president of the Vaad must be a well respected, successful, no drama, person. Theres no games with a certain group trying to take over or over pushing their agenda. A balance of power works well not only in govt.

    #2105207
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Kuvult: “don’t judge a Yid by their Hashkafa judge them by whether they’re a Mensch.”

    Why should a Jew be judged at all? And once I am judging him, why in the world should I judge him if he is a mensch and not by hashkafa? What’s the difference?

    It doesn’t say “You shall love a mensch as yourself.” Who doesn’t love mensches? Most people love non-Jewish mensches as well! The mitzvah of ואהבת לרעך כמוך means to love every single Jew, whether he is handsome, polite, smelly, dirty, stupid, or rude. (רמב”ם הלכות דעות פ”ו ה”ג)
    You don’t love your brother because he is a mensch.


    @Reb
    Eliezer – RE: Machlokes between Aim Habonim Smeicha and the Minchas Elozor

    These are actually two ways in the Gemara (Sanhedrin 99a):
    If we merit the Geula (זכו) – it will happen speedily before its time (אחישנה) and miraculously (ארו עם ענני שמיא).
    If ch”v we don’t merit the Geula (לא זכו) – it will happen in its time (בעתה) in a long natural process (עני ורוכב על החמור).

    #2105259
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is fixed time and and a earlier time to bring Meshiach. Is the argument if we merit it before the fixed time what will happen? Obviously if we merit it, we bring Meshiach spontaneously. Maybe we generate the merit by working for his coming, צפית לישועה?, so he will come earlier. The Minchas Elozor’s view will be that we cannot generate the merit by our actions because we would violate the three shavuos, so only elimination of futile hatred can accelerate his coming. When the fixed time arrives, if we don’t merited, a melech kasha kehaman, a harsh king like Haman will bring us back to teshuva and Meshiach will come spontaneously, in either case whether we merited or not.

    #2105261

    Kuvult > I never understood this concept of “Tzadikim” owning or running their own school

    There is such concept in Bava Basra – when butcher union decided to slash skins of one who was breaking their monopoly, they were blamed for making community decision when there was a talmid chacham in town. They shold have gone to him for a resolution. (I presume beis din would work also).
    That is, Talmid Chacham as a first resort, and democracy as a second (politics at that time allowed guilds to behave as a community, we might consider this a monopoly).

    Community approach you mention is also good – if it works. Or, a competition approach that I mentioned. Each might work depending on size and structure of the community. Back to Bava Basra’s discussion of educational system, it seems that we just need to keep the goal – education – in mind (rather than teachers’ or other interest), and whatever works empirically should be used, and if not – discarded. Bava Basra lists approaches tried during Beis Mikdash sheni era: first fathers were teaching (seems like most preferred option) – but many were not educated enough (Lakewood was not built yet); then, they sent kids to Cohanim in Yerushalayim (2nd preferred – most inspired teachers in a most inspired location) – but not all fathers could drive there; 3rd best – regional centers where kids could walk themselves (that is, still somewhat higher quality teachers, less inspiring setting), but only teenagers would walk so far and they would not listen to the teachers (maybe because teachers/setting were not best?); and 4th best approach that worked – teach small kids at each location (maybe not best teachers, but small kids will listen) + ensure sufficient funding (small class sizes or extra teachers) + unlimited competition, as described already.

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