January 27, 2014 9:57 am at 9:57 am #611977Ken ZaynMember
In last week’s Sedra of ?????? the pasuk says:
????????? ????? ????????? ?????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???????? ??????????
that the ??? ????? said ???????? ?????????? to the Torah.
This is in ??? ???, ???? ?
which in English you would say 24,7!!!January 27, 2014 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1000978☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I don’t think the breakdown of perakim is of Jewish origin.January 27, 2014 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1000979BoruchSchwartzParticipant
how can you prove that it means 24,7?January 27, 2014 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1000980yungermanSParticipant
the complete message from Hashem** is:
the pasuk in the Torah that says when the Jews said Na’asa V’nishma (we will do & we will hear) in the desert is 24:7 (chapter 24 the 7th sentence) what can we learn from this? what is Hashem’s message? The Torah is a 24-7 job. The Torah is not just a book of 613 laws that Hashem told us to keep. The Torah is not just a book that if we learn it then it keeps yiddishkeit going. The torah is a persons guidebook to life, if a person keeps to the laws of the torah he is guaranteed success from Hashem. Now please tell me, who made it be this pasuk? Was it the Anshei Knesses Ha’gedola, Moshe Rabeinu or did it come straight from Hashem?January 28, 2014 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1000981WIYMember
The perakim are not of Jewish origin.January 28, 2014 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1000982LevAryehMember
P’rakim are of zero significance according to our mesorah.January 28, 2014 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1000983takahmamashParticipant
Have enough people written yet that we don’t go by perakim? Yes? Good, then I won’t have to write it too.January 28, 2014 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1000984BaalHaboozeParticipant
Perakim aheen perakim aherr, the vort is a cute little remez no matter the origin of perakim! Sometimes you guys are so analytical I want to bop you on the head! lol! lighten up!
Thank you for this great verttel, KZ, I know I got a lot of hana’ah from it. You should definitely post it on the “YWN Coffee Room Nightly D’Var Torah” thread, here:January 28, 2014 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1000985
BH: I strongly disagree. The Ovdei Avodah Zarah forced something into our holy Torah and you want to find a Remez from it?January 28, 2014 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1000986zahavasdadParticipant
Perkim are of Christian origin, The Jews generally accepted them during the middle ages when there were “debates” and the christian used a chapter and verse to make a point, the jewish debated in order to retort had to also quote a chapter and verse.
Thats the reason why Pashas do not match Perakim, the christians got the chapters wrongJanuary 28, 2014 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1000987BaalHaboozeParticipant
If there was something wrong with it, why does EVERY chumash have it??? E-V-E-R-Y S-I-N-G-L-E CHUMASH!
Yes, I will find a remez, as the above poster yungermanS posted so eloquently, it is a message from Hashem! But take it as you wish, and I will take it as I wish, NOBODY is forcing ANYBODY to find remozim in Perakim.January 28, 2014 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1000988WolfishMusingsParticipant
The Ovdei Avodah Zarah forced something into our holy Torah
Forced? I hardly think so.
Yes, it became convenient as a reference point for disputations, but I don’t think any non-Jewish authorities ever issued a decree saying “When you print your holy books, you must use our chapter/verse numbering system…”
In any event, if you truly feel that this is so abonimable, you’re free to print a Tanach without perek/pasuk references. I don’t see any of the Gedolim calling for the abolition of these references now that we have the ability to print sefarim with impunity in any manner we like.
The WolfJanuary 28, 2014 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1000989
BH: Not that it changes your point much, but the Call of the Torah Chumash refuses to use it.January 28, 2014 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1000990LevAryehMember
If you look in the Koren Tanach they have the “real” perakim printed on the side. I’m not sure what the origin of those are though.
Interestingly, in Tanach the perakim are insignificant and the pesukim are; while in Mishnayos the perakim are significant and the mishnayos are not.January 28, 2014 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #10009912ND OPPINIONParticipant
Is there anything wrong with admitting that Hashem guided the christians to separate perakim in a way that brings out a point to anyone who wants to find a cute remez? KZ was just reminding us of Hashgocha Pratis in every areaJanuary 28, 2014 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1000992oyyoyyoyParticipant
heard once they tried to use a new system but nobody cud find anything so they just kept it as is. anybody familiar with this?January 30, 2014 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1000993ItcheSrulikMember
Sam2: Calm down. Standardized chapter and verse is one of the best things Christians ever did for Torah learning (probably ranks even higher than the Bomberg Talmud). Can you imagine trying to look anything up without them, especially in the parts of tanach which most frum people don’t read and have no frame of reference for?January 30, 2014 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1000994
Itche: I don’t mind utilizing it for convenience. But to make a Drasha out of it? That flies in the face of actual, God-given Torah.January 31, 2014 12:25 am at 12:25 am #1000995ItcheSrulikMember
Sam, only if you take it seriously and consider the vort part of actual God-given Torah which I don’t think most people here do, including OP. The best way to view this genre of shalsheedis torah is as a form of secular entertainment guaranteed to be kosher because of the medium.January 31, 2014 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1000996☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
IS, there’s a big difference. If we find a remez in the Torah to a true idea, we can certainly say that Hashem meant the remez to be there. If someone sees a remez in the non Jewish sourced perakim, I’d just as soon point out that it says “v’higisa bo yomom volayla” and leave it at that.January 31, 2014 5:46 am at 5:46 am #1000997truthsharerMember
It’s in the second sefer, sixth parsha. It’s obvious that we are to practice Judaism 24/7 only during the sixth of the second month. The mishna is not sure of the month, is it Iyar or Cheshvan. That is why we are machmir and do it by both, and that is why we do BaHab during those months.
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