8 days: Be ๐Ÿ™‚ or ๐Ÿ˜ซ?

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  • #1770471

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Av 9, we mourn for the destruction of the Beit Hamigdash.

    …Now, from Av 1 and Av 8, do we increase our happiness and/or do we mourn?

    I thought that we decrease joyous events and mourn during these days.

    Then, a few days ago, I listened to a shiur about how to counteract all of the suffering, it is our jobs as Jews to spread even more happiness during these days to bring on the Geula

    Or is this “happy versus sad days between Av 1 and Av 9” a machlokes?

    Is the call to spread greater happiness and light during these days a more Chassidic interpretation and/or teaching?

    Thank you

    #1770651

    Shulchan Aruch 551:1 ืž๏ฌชื ื›ื ืก ืื‘ ืžืžืขื˜ื™ืŸ ๏ฌฑ๏ฌซืžื—ื”

    #1770691

    lakewhut
    Participant

    What was the context? We say ืขื‘ื“ื• ืืช ื”’ ื‘ืฉืžื—ื”. Perhaps it means we have to display it differently.

    #1770680

    CS
    Participant

    Just to clarify, its not a contradiction. We’re mourning on the outside while being bsimcha on the inside. It’s like a mother changing a dirty diaper – the baby may scream because it hurts but she’s only doing it because of her great love of the child. So Hashem gave us these harsh days because He really loves us and through working on ourselves in these days, they are meant to bring us to Geula

    #1770669

    laskern
    Participant

    It says ื›ืœ ืฉืžืชืื‘ืœ ืขืœ ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื ื–ื•ื›ื” ื•ืจื•ืื” ื‘ืฉืžื—ืชื” whoever mourns the chorban of Jerusalem wilk see its happiness. Explains the Chasam Sofer that the deceased becomes forgotten, but not the chorban because we trust that the Beis Hamikdash will be rebuilt soon in our time so its not dead

    #1770667

    CS
    Participant

    It’s a Chassidic interpretation. The Rebbe put a comma after mimaatin, so it reads from when Av enters, we decrease (all the negative energy etc) with Simcha. Obviously Simcha in a way that is permitted such as having or attending a siyum every night etc.

    These days are on the surface level harsh sad days but their inner meaning is to get us to the Geula (through correcting the reasons for the churban.) The way to do that today is by being positive and looking forward to and yearning for the Geula in a positive way.

    @mods can you change my username to CS? I was told I should use my initials only when posting on a mixed forum thanks.

    #1770726

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Then, a few days ago, I listened to a shiur about how to counteract all of the suffering, it is our jobs as Jews to spread even more happiness during these days to bring on the Geula”

    Let me guess, Chabad?

    The halachah is clear that we decrease simchah. And no, the inverse is not “the Chassidishe shittah.” It might be that of ONE Chassidus, but not the rest. One thing to consider: if a group/person willingly broadcasts on the internet and elsewhere that “the geula is here!” that group will inherently treat the 9 days less seriously/as a formality, so take it with a grain of salt.

    #1770727

    laskern
    Participant

    CS, attending a siyum every night is circumventing the intention of recognizing that the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed and we are unable to make our daily sacrifice. For the ashkenazim it is a time mourning.. This mourning is greater than avelos because it involves all of us. We will have seven weeks of simcha after tisha beov.

    #1770728

    samthenylic
    Participant

    CS, that is a LAME explanation. We are sad because the Shechina is in Galus. However, we, being “mekabel yesurim beahava”, we accept everything with simcha, because that is Hashem’s will that we have yesurim. That doesn’t mean that we wallow in our sadness, just as when a woman gives birth. She has great pain and cries from it, but she is besimcha since she is bringing a new soul into the world.

    #1770741

    laskern
    Participant

    sam, maybe that is why this month is called Av. We recognize that Hashem is our father and whatever He does is for our benefit.

    #1770848

    reform rabbi
    Participant

    ืžืžืขื˜ื™ื ื‘ืฉืžื—ื” means that we don’t make parties. We still must always be happy because it is a big mitzvah to be happy always. (ืœื™ืงื•ื˜ื™ ืžื•ื”ืจ”ืŸ).

    The halachah is about social events of simchah, while R Nachman is talking about personal ืฉืžื—ื”. No contradiction.

    #1770843

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin: Yes, Chabad

    #1770933

    Just to clarify, its not a contradiction.

    Yes it is. You even know it is, so you have to twist the words ืž๏ฌชื ื›ื ืก ืื‘ ืžืžืขื˜ื™ืŸ ๏ฌฑ๏ฌซืžื—ื” to mean the opposite of their meaning.

    NCB is right. Only modern day chabad reads things upside down like this.

    #1771023

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “The halachah is about social events of simchah, while R Nachman is talking about personal ืฉืžื—ื”. No contradiction.”
    Likutei Moharan is not a sefer halachah. Whether or not there’s a contradiction is irrelevant; it’s not comparing apples to apples.

    “Yes it is. You even know it is, so you have to twist the words ืž๏ฌชื ื›ื ืก ืื‘ ืžืžืขื˜ื™ืŸ ๏ฌฑ๏ฌซืžื—ื” to mean the opposite of their meaning.”
    Seriously. With all of our creative minds combined, we never came up with anything that far out on the YTC Teshuvos thread.

    #1771031

    midwesterner
    Participant

    DY: Also some fair chunks of Breslov

    #1771029

    laskern
    Participant

    CS, It say:

    ืชืœืžื•ื“ ื‘ื‘ืœื™ ืžืกื›ืช ืชืขื ื™ืช ื“ืฃ ืœ ืขืžื•ื“ ื‘
    ืžื›ืืŸ ืืžืจื•: ื›ืœ ื”ืžืชืื‘ืœ ืขืœ ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื ื–ื•ื›ื” ื•ืจื•ืื” ื‘ืฉืžื—ืชื”, ื•ืฉืื™ื ื• ืžืชืื‘ืœ ืขืœ ื™ืจื•ืฉืœื™ื – ืื™ื ื• ืจื•ืื” ื‘ืฉืžื—ืชื”.

    It does not say whoever rejoices for the redemption will be joyful, but ‘mourns’ on the chorban.

    #1771505

    reform rabbi
    Participant

    “Likutei Moharan is not a sefer halachah. Whether or not thereโ€™s a contradiction is irrelevant; itโ€™s not comparing apples to apples.”

    The question is: In Likutei Moharan it says ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ื’ื“ื•ืœื” ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ื‘ืฉืžื—ื” ืชืžื™ื“, happy always; while in the mishnah it says ืžืฉื ื›ื ืก ืื‘ ืžืžืขื˜ื™ื ื‘ืฉืžื—ื”, in Av we lessen ืฉืžื—ื”. How can R Nachman’s statement stand notwithstanding the mishnah?! Doesn’t R Nachman’s statement require always ืฉืžื—ื” while the mishnah requires sometimes no ืฉืžื—ื”?

    The answer is that ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ื‘ืฉืžื—ื” and ืžืžืขื˜ื™ื ื‘ืฉืžื—ื” are not going on the same thing. ืœื”ื™ื•ืช is a state of mind and ืžืžืขื˜ื™ื is acts of ืฉืžื—ื”.

    #1771560

    chymee
    Participant

    There is an old Chassidish Vort (I think it’s from the previous Skverer Rebbe R’ Yakov Yosef Zatza”l)
    !!! ืžืฉื ื›ื ืก ืื‘ ืžืžืขื˜ื™ืŸ “?” ื‘ืฉืžื—ื”
    One should always be ื‘ืฉืžื—ื”
    ื‘ื‘ื—ื™ื ืช ื•ื’ื™ืœื•ื™ ื‘ืจืขื“ื”

    #1771559

    devny
    Participant

    Happiness is not simply a dial you can turn up or down on a whim. So the idea is to avoid doing things that you know will make you happier. But not that you should actively be trying to be depressed.

    I know this because Hashem told me.

    #1771569

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Reform:
    My point was that you don’t really need to be machria a statement in a musar/philosophy sefer with a point in halachah. You could just conclude that Rebbe Nachman didn’t really mean “always,” or frankly just ignore the contradiction.

    It’s quite common for musar sforim to state things that are not really meakev. I used to call musar shiur the wild wild west because the Rabbi can make any kind of statement about something being “assur” without any proofs from the gemara or S”A. The point is that it’s “ethics” not halachah.

    #1771652

    laskern
    Participant

    Isn’t Tikun Chatzos depressing?

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