Are you makpid on ע ?

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  • This topic contains 32 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Avi K 2 months ago.
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  • #1741530

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Pronouncing it as it should be?

    #1741545

    besod emuna
    Participant

    The Teimanim have pronunciations closest to Har Sinai. Much better than Ashkenazim or Sephardim.

    #1741558

    akuperma
    Participant

    Since the sound of the “Ayin” is absent from all Indo-European (a.k.a. Aryan) languages, virtually all Ashkenazim and many Sefardim will find it very difficult to pronounce it. The same goes (for English speakers) with the sounds associated with Aleph, Hes, Chaf and Heh.

    Given the Hebrew has always been a living language (contrary to zionist propaganda that Hebrew died out millenia ago and was re-invented by Ben Yehudah & friends), the prononciation and grammar are constantly changing.

    #1741572

    frumshmurda718
    Participant

    Yes

    #1741571

    rational
    Participant

    Akuperma is right, except that literary Hebrew never died, but spoken Hebrew did. (a trivial point, it is pronunciation).
    I’ll add to Akuperma’s list the letters that Ashkenazim pronounce differently than North Africans and Middle Easterners.
    The Gimel, Vav, Tet, Samech, Tzadi (k), Kuf, Resh, Sin, and Tav.
    So the OP’s question is misleading, it’s not only the Ayin.

    #1741585

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    It’s not misleading. I’m just specifically asking about ע. I’m aware that there are other differences.

    #1741610

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Only with the name Yaakov. No idea why so many of us have that minhag.

    #1741608

    ZSK
    Participant

    Yup, 100%, as well differentiation between most letter pairs that Ashkenazim pronounce the same.

    #1741668

    GAON
    Participant

    Its not a matter of “differences”. It is actually mentioned in Shu”A and based on the Gemara in Megila 24b, it was simply forgotten…lost within the years.

    As the following in OC siman 128 :
    מי שאינו יודע לחתוך האותיות כגון שאומר לאלפי”ן עייני”ן ולעייני”ן אלפי”ן וכיוצא בזה לא ישא את כפיו:
    Mishna Brurah:

    לאלפין עיינין – וה”ה מי שקורא לחיתי”ן ההי”ן או שקורא לשבולת סבולת ואם כל בני עירו קוראין כך מותר לישא כפים שם באותו מקום. ומטעם זה כתבו האחרונים דבזמנינו שרוב בני עמנו אין יודעים להבחין בין הברת העי”ן לאל”ף ממילא מותר לישא כפיו

    #1741678

    samthenylic
    Participant

    To prolong the Daled in “echod”, the sound is like “th” in “the”, and is difficult to pronounce properly, especially when you have to be mechaven what is required!

    #1741683

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yabia

    Do you pronounce ת thav or tav?

    #1741599

    besalel
    Participant

    Akuperman: spoken Hebrew is one thing and davening is another thing. I am sure you’re familiar with this from

    אין מורידין לפני התיבה לא אנשי בית שאן ולא אנשי בית חיפה ולא אנשי טבעונין מפני שקורין לאלפין עיינין ולעיינין אלפין

    #1741606

    lakewhut
    Participant

    The teimanim don’t have a strong mesorah

    #1741632

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Actually as one who has prayed at many Syrian, Egyptian & Lebanese kenesiot, I am capable of pronouncing the ayin as well as the ghimel, het, t’et, sadiq, quf etc.
    Of course that doesn’t cover the Teimanite (& Iraqi) Wav or is it Waw?
    Also there is the difference for a ג without a דגש betwen the Syrians/Iraqis & the Teimanites, with the former pronouncing it ghimmel & the latter jimmel.

    #1741677

    GAON
    Participant

    Nev,
    “Only with the name Yaakov. No idea why so many of us have that minhag.”

    That proves my above point that the Ayin as in “Yankev” is actually the true pronunciation, (as in the Gemara megilah,) with the years it got lost, but it still stuck to the name “Yankev”.

    BTW – The Brisker Rav ZTL said Krias Shma with the Ayin.

    #1741707

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Definitely not thav. Isn’t that Yemenite?

    #1741699

    Milhouse
    Participant

    The Teimanim have pronunciations closest to Har Sinai. Much better than Ashkenazim or Sephardim.

    And you know this how? I can assure you, Hebrew has no J sound. Temanim picked it up from Arabic.

    #1741736

    GAON
    Participant

    ” I can assure you, Hebrew has no J sound”

    How do you know that?

    How about “W” sound for Vav?

    #1741829

    Avi K
    Participant

    Anyone who is not makpid on the ע in keriat shema says apikorsut. He says השם נשבה לאבותינו, which means that He was captured c”v. Similarly, those who pronounce the chaf like the kaf say that Hashem destroys the world out of chesed c”v. On the other hand. those who overcompensate say that געל ישראל instead of גאל ישראל, which is also very bad.

    As for the צ, it is clear that at one time it was similar to the “s” sound as the word for stadium in אצטדיון (the א was due to the fact that they could not pronounce a sheva nach at the beginning of a word (Arabs also often do this). Apparently Ashkenazim did not change their pronunciation until later as one of the Baalei Tosafot is
    רבי אליעזר ממץ. In French the name of the city is pronounced with a long “s” (you can hear it by going into the Wikipedia article on the city).

    Regarding picking up sounds from other languages, it is clear that pronouncing the cholem “oy” or a long “o” (e.g. kosher) comes from Slavic influences. Pronouncing it like an “i” comes from the German ü.

    #1741858

    beisyosef
    Participant

    @milhouse: you’re probably right that there is no j sound in the Hebrew alef bet, but you’re also clearly uninformed in regards to the machloket in yemenite pronunciation. Jews from Sanaa (the capital) did pronounce the gimmel with a dagesh like a j in order to differentiate between that and the quf which they pronounce like Ashkenazim do the gimmel. But what many seem to not realize is that many yemenites (all Jews from sharab and other places as well) pronounced the gimmel with a dagesh like Ashkenazim do a reg gimmel and the quf is pronounced similar (but not exactly) like a Q.

    #1741870

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Milhouse. You can assure us? I’m expected to trust the phonological knowledge of some retired American Jewish dude from Brooklyn? What a laugh.

    Some people pronounce Gimel without a dagesh as Gh as in the Arabic ghayin.

    #1741997

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Gaon:
    I don’t think anybody denies that what you’re saying is true. Ideally, everyone would pronounce it correctly. The Mishnah Berurah does say in hilchos nasias kapayim that when a whole locality loses the ability the differentiate, they are still yotzei everything. He mentions that Russian Jews at his time did not differentiate between sin and shin.

    Now allow me to say something that will inevitably make a lot of posters here freak out: sometimes it’s better to be normal than to be right.

    #1742023

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Are you makpid on differentiating between ג and גּ? What about תּ and ט?

    #1742053

    GAON
    Participant

    “sometimes it’s better to be normal than to be right.”

    Agreed as far as davening etc goes – but why shouldn’t you say Krias Shma with the proper pronunciation?

    #1742064

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I’m certainly not encouraging people not to with the shema.

    It’s worth mentioning, however, that people from NYC don’t seem to be able to pronounce the guttural sound involved in the sounds, “ing,” “ang,” and “ong.” If they tried out this chashash and ended up saying “shemon-guh yisroel…” they would probably be doing more harm than good.

    #1742084

    YO,
    For Shema and Krias Hatorah, we do.

    #1742083

    YO,

    Besod,
    Sephardic Middle Eastern Jews Pronounce five different vowel sounds which is Babylonian Origin
    ashkenazic non Hasidic Jews make 7 different vowel sounds which was of Galilean origin
    Yemenite make six different vowel sounds which seems to have been of Judean origin

    As They were by and large contemporaneous there’s no proof one is better than the other Though there is sourced basis that the Sephardic pronunciation has more flaws

    #1742394

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Yes, I can assure you there is no J sound in Hebrew. It should be completely obvious that gimel and daleth with and without a dagesh have the same relationship as do the similar pairs: beth-bheth, kof-khof, pe-phe, and tau-thau. Their sounds cannot be completely different from each other. In each case the sound is essentially the same, but the dagesh-less form is softer and the dagesh form is harder. Thus Daleth without a dagesh is like a Greek delta, or like the consonant in “the”, “there”, and “though”. Or, as Yehuda Halevi wrote, like the sound of a bee buzzing.

    #1742431

    Naftush-2
    Participant

    Neville’s remark about “ong” reminded me that the Dutch Jews use “ong” for ע, saying “shmong Yisrael” and so on. As for New Yorkers and others who have a hard time with this or that letter, usually it isn’t that big a deal to add a new sound to the repertoire. Arabs who go to the trouble pick up “p” perfectly. As for me, I make it my business to learn and say ע and ח in leining and in talking because the letters are there and, since I casually refer to Hebrew as לשון הקודש, I may as well talk the talk, too. If as an Ashkenazi I need an excuse for doing to (although no one has asked me for one), it’s enough to mention the great ba’al qore at Lederman’s shul, who is maqpid loud enough for hundreds of people to hear.

    #1742539

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I’ve always followed the logic that the havara with fewer differentiations is likely less close to the original than those with more.

    People who says teimani havara is the best and then Sphardi is second best are clearly not basing it in logic. Ashkenaz havara is closer to teimani than Sphardish is.

    #1742565

    besalel
    Participant

    Neville: I agree with your statement as a whole but is there really a “sfaradi” havara? Iraqis and Syrians are close to one another but not the same; Moroccans and Tunisians are very different from Iraqis and Syrians, Iranian, Bukharian and Afghani pronunciations are similar to one another but are very different from the rest, etc.

    Having studied the subject for a bit, it seems to me (for the little that its worth) that Iraqi/Baghdadi is the most authentic and almost everyone else stands equal-distanced, in one form or another, from the Iraqi pronunciation (except the chassishe pronunciation which stands very distant from Iraqi).

    #1743651

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Definitely not thav.

    So how does a דגש make a difference for ת?

    #1743773

    Avi K
    Participant

    Besalel, it is most likely that every tribe had its own pronunciation as with other languages (e.g. Boston and NY accents). We know for a fact that Ephraimites pronounced the shin like a samech. It seems that during the time of the Tannaim there was a difference between Judea and the Galil as Beruria knew immediately that Rabbi Yossi haGlili was from there (Eruvin 53b). In later periods there were places where people did not differentiate between ח and ה or א and ע (Megilla 24b).

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