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Why is it that some in our community feel that bain adam l’makom is more important to them than bain adam l’chaveiro, while others in our community feel that bain adam l’chaveiro is more important t them than bain adam l’makom, shouldn’t they be equally important to Torah Jews?
I sincerely feel that if we express negativity towards non frum Jews and gentiles, then we will end up feeling negativity towards other fellow frum Jews whom are not on the same level of frumkeit as us. The Gemara says “kol hakofer b’toivaso shel chaveiro sofo lichpor b’toivosa shel Hakodosh Boruch Hu”- One who’s unappreciative to his fellow’s good will ultimately become unappreciative to Hashem’s good. We see from this Gemora that human psyche lacks the ability to grasp differentiation when it comes to middos/character traits; so if one feels negativity towards gentiles/non frum Jews than he may ultimately feel negativity towards his fellow frum Jews.
Additionally, many issurim d’oraysa like Gezel Ach”um and Lo Sirtzach, etc. apply to gentiles as well as Jews. Also, the Gemora states that Rabbi Yochanon Ben Zachai would never miss being first to greet someone in the street, Jew and gentile alike. As far as some comments in the Gemora; we must understand that the Gemorah was referring to gentiles who have physically harmed the Jews, harmed other gentiles, and whom were Oved Avoda Zara. However, many gentiles here in America hardly fit that category, and may have actually be considered chasidei umos haolam by the Gemorah for all the good which they have done for the sustenance Torah Jewry here in America.
I agree with the OP’s sentiments.
Our purpose in the world is to become like Hashem. “Mah nu rachum, af attah rachum, mah hu…” These are all issues of bein adam lachaveiro. It does not say “mah hu tzaddik af attah tzaddik”.
The purpose of the mitzvos is that they improve our middos. Of course, we do mitzvos because Hashem commanded them, not because we are trying to improve our middos, but chazal have told us that the reason for them is that they improve our middos.
So why do some disparage bein adom lachaveiro?
I theorize it is because other groups have taken the bein adom lacheveiro’s and made that the entire torah, which it is not. By doing so they actually destroy their ability to work on their middos, since Hashem created man in a way that the torah is what can improve him.
I theorize the disparaging of bein adam lachaveiro one occasionally hears (although not very often), is a backlash to those who are denying the place of bein adom lamakom.
What do you think?
I completely agree with you and I would like to take that a step further and say that this is also a concept of ???? ??????. If the ???? respect us for who we are (well at least some of them do) then we should also show that sort of respect for them also.
lomed
you are mixing up some issues. you are right that both bain adam l’makom and bain adam l’chaveiro are both important. but both of them apply to jews. that being said, it is also important to be nice to gentiles. but that is a separate issue, not directly related to bain adam l’chaveiro which doesnt apply to them. (although you may be correct in that if someone neglects bain adam l’chaveiro he will probably not be too nice to non-jews either.)
also, another issue i must take with your comment is that certain people make untrue allegations that people who defend bain adam l’makom are somehow negligent with bain adam l’chaveiro. this untruth may have rubbed off on you, so i hope you havent bought into it. like the other day i started a thread pointing out problems with starbucks, which is a bain adam l’makom issue. does that mean i am somehow negligent in bain adam l’chaveiro? no. but there are people who will find a bad apple and incorrectly apply it community-wide.
i actually heard once this arguement in context of lashon hara. yes it is muttar to speak about a goy, but it will make you into the type of person that will be bitter and will speak about others at the end.
1. between jews and goyim: i think many are scared of becoming too close and have therefore taken the opposite extreme. also, if we’re talking about halacha, correct me if i am wrong but there are halachos regarding giving compliments or gifts to goyim, but basic respect is usually necessary.
2. btw jews and other jews, esp. different types of frum (neither of which are ‘modern’) — this i really can’t understand. as a normal, yeshivishe kollel-wife there are certain neighborhoods that i wont visit due to how i percieve i am being treated.
popa bar abba.
I agree.
I also think that what shlishi said is right, that unfortunately some people who seem to excel at bain adam l’makom neglect bain adam l’chaveiro, and this gives fodder to those who do the reverse to expand it to an entire group. It’s a kind of defense mechanism.
Regarding treating all human beings with respect, I know of a certain rosh hayeshiva, a gadol, who complimented the janitor, while not in his presence. One of his talmidim asked why it’s not lo s’chaneim, to which he responded that one must always speak positively, to train ourselves to be positive. Otherwise a negative attitude will come out at the wrong time.
In pevious threads, people who were machmir on bein adom l’makom isus bragged how they blocked diveways or double parked .The classic case is the person on my friend’s block in Midwood who had his driveway blocked by someoe rushing to make a minyan
i never saw anyone here brag about themselves blocking driveways or double parking. can you kindly show which thread anyone allegedly bragged like that? and then show us where he or she was machmir on bein adom l’makom? (not that there is anything wrong to be machmir on bein adom l’makom.)
this is what i meant by people associating an individual (allegedly) doing something wrong with an entire group of people.
also, even though there are individuals who are negligent in bein adom l’chaveiro, i’ve never heard any group supporting violating bein adom l’chaveiro *b’shitta*. unfortunately, there are groups that are okay with violating bein adom l’makom b’shitta.
LMA:
Thanks!
(That is quite a compliment considering some of the absurd things I’ve posted today. See generally paying babysitter, paying cleaning woman, starbucks, divorce, etc.)
again, the machmirim do not only go to extremes on bein adam l’makom. do not generalize. (and as pointed out, it is usually the reverse.)
Shlishi:
Are you as careful with ??? ??? ?????? as u r with not eating at Starbucks? 🙂
i used to drink in starbucks until i saw the cRc kashrus alert against starbucks last week. but i am careful in both inyanim, in any event.
we all excel in different areas-we are all striving to be better people and better jews-stop judging everybody else, look at them with a good eye for what they do well, be as good as you can be, try to keep growing, and don’t expect to become a gaon overnight, it takes long years of hard work, and if we all try to do our best and help each other, we will succeed!
Shlishi
What? U have drunk Starbucks????! Have u started a ????? process yet?
Lomed:
Would you learn from me too?
I beg to disagree on one point. We do all mitzvohs HaShem said for His sake, not for character refinement. Character refinement is included in ????? ??????. Kindly correct me if I’m wrong.
We do all mitzvohs HaShem said for His sake, not for character refinement
Correct. We do all mitzvos because Hashem told us to. However. chazal have told us that the purpose is character refinement.
All Mitzvos are because Hashem commanded us. They are just categorized differently when we describe them..
Truth be told:
But they are still two different concepts and someone can respect others while not respecting hashem. I think the discussion here is when they are two separate concepts. But yes in the jewish world that is (hopefully) true.
how bout that fact that there is a difference btw. respecting and showing respect? i don’t have to respect a goy and all he stands for in order to deal respectfully with him when i have to (ie neighbors, etc). we know “chachma bagoyim ta’amin” so i can respect their medical discoveries, etc., without respecting the constantly-sinking “morals” of this generation of goyim.
Shmuel294: someone can respect others while not respecting hashem
How many of those who respect humans respected us, at all, during the terrible holocaust?
they’ve been sinking in the previous generations as well.
Truth be told:
1) I dont get your comparison to a rabbit.
2) let’s not foreget all those soldiers who died and all those people who campaigned for our sake during ww2.
3) You refer to someone being “negligent” in ????. Are we all so self righteous to say that we are not “negligent” in some ????.
4) our discussion is comparing ??? ??? ????? to ??? ??? ?????? and you are comparing ??? ??? ????? with ??? ??? ?????? against just ??? ??? ??????.
5) has a shfartza never held open a door for u? Wish u good morning/ good night? Why would they do that? That is ??? ??? ?????? with out ??? ??? ????? (well sort of).
6) and I don’t think that having no ??? ??? ????? will lead to hitting a woman regaurdless of what kind of coat she is wearing.
shmuel294: there is a big difference btw derech eretz/common courtesy and bein adam lachavairo not bec its nice and makes sense but as a mitzvah. just being nice without yiras shamayim can lead to tradgedy such as animal activists who declare “animals are ppl too” and yes they do violence to PEOPLE because bears are the new humans. o! Dont forget trees are ppl too according to them *smirk* gotta have G-D aspect.
I heard from Rav Fishel Shechter that Hashem put up the Peroches in the Beis Hamikdash so that when the Jews come to be Oleh Regel, they shouldn’t think that they only want to live with ruchniyus now and they’ll abandon their wife, kids, job etc. Hashem wanted to show them that they’re human, so He made the peroches that the Yidden should see that they can’t cross that fine line.
lomed
specifically which halacha of kavod habriyos, applicable to gentiles, is docheh a lav D’rabanan?
This thread is hashgacha pratit.
We should be careful with the chaveiro mitzvos so we are a good example. If people see an observant Jew behaving rudely or something, it might have a negative impact on the person, like on a BT or even a ffb,G-d forbid.
On the other side, we can make a good impact on others if we are careful with good middos I’YH
the point of my post was that EVERYTHING must be governed by torah and yiras shamaim, not feelings, logis or “the righgt thing to do (we have seen what humane societies have done) btw i would say that wedo what hashem says period. refinement of middos is our understanding and we dont ness see it in every mitzva eg eradictating amalek.
Mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro ARE mitzvos that are ALSO bein adam L’Makom. He gave both sets of mitzvos to us. Miztvos bein adam l’Makom are ONLY bein adam l’Makom.
Oomis:
Good point! I agree with u!
Essy8:
About what you said about bears, do mean to say that u would not kill a stranger to save a friend???
What do you mean by two sets of Mitzvos? It says to eat in a Succah for seven days, and it says not to cross the boundary of your friend. They are both in the same Torah. However, Middos are not explicitly commanded in the Torah in specific form. That is because they are for our relationship with this world, whereas the Mitzvos are Amok Amok Mi Yimtza’enu. Ribbis is not dictated by human morals, and Geneiva is much worse than the fact that your friend is now unhappy.
We are required, of course, to be good people in every sense of the word, as it says, Ve’asisa Hayashar Ve’hatov. Therefore, regardless if a specific act is Assur or Muttar, we must act according to what is appropriate.
We act in a way that is appropriate because gd tells us to. He sets the standards of what is apprapo and what isnt.
“What do you mean by two sets of Mitzvos?”
Not a difficult concept to grasp:
Set One- Mitzvos bein adam L’Makom i.e., avoda zara, kashrus, shabbos, shiluach hakan
Set Two- Mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro, i.e. stealing, arayos, murder, L”H, etc.
The two sets of mitzvos form the ONE Torah. If someone is oveir any of the laws of Set Two, which is also commanded by Hashem with absolutely the same chashivus as Set One, it would be an aveira against both man AND G-d. That would be a double whammy,something which Yom Kippur is not mechapeir without asking mechillah from Hashem AND also from the person you injured in some way, whereas if you eat treif or are mechallel Shabbos, you only need to get mechillah from Hashem.
Miztvos bein adam l’Makom are ONLY bein adam l’Makom.
Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh Lozeh. If I am m’challel Shabbos, it negatively affects all Jews; we are part of one entity.
I would say that bein adam l’chaveiro is also bein adam l’makom and bein adam l’makom is also bein adam l’chaveiro. The difference is in a direct sense. The reason we can do teshuva on bein adam l’makom without askind mechila first from every Jew, I suppose, is because to the extent that the teshuva is effective, it removes the harm done to everyone else. It would also otherwise be impossible to do teshuvah on bein adam l’makom.
Bein Adam Lachaveiro needs the person’s forgiveness because untill then you did not rectify the wrong you commited. It is one deeply penetrating wrong deed, not two.
Mitzvos Sichlios are those Mitzvos which happen to make sense in our perspective as well as Hashem’s. Non Jews are required to maintain law and order for the sake of this world. Societal requirements are self understood. We are also required to do what is right, but that is a separate concept from Gezeros Hashem. That is why Middos, although they are meant to be learned and gleamed from the Torah, are not mentioned explicitly in detail.
this conversation has gone so far that i have no clue what we are disscussing anymore .
Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh Lozeh. If I am m’challel Shabbos, it negatively affects all Jews; we are part of one entity.”
True, but ultimately a person can do teshuvah for chillul Shabbos. You are expressing an esoteric concept, that what one Jew does affects us all. In many respects you are right about that.But ultimately it is still a SIN against Hashem. The guy who eats treif does not have to go to everyone in town and say he’s sorry. If he steals from someone, however, he can try to atone, but until he returns the stolen object to the person whom he robbed and begs mechillah, he cannot get Hashem’s forgiveness.
If you read between the spaces, you’ll notice that I wrote “explicitly in detail.” I wrote that in both posts. Those words mean that besides for the actual Mitzvos of Lo Saalim, Hashavas Aveida, Ribbis and Pe’ah, there is a general Mitzva to be kind, generous and righteous. Just as there is a general Mitzva to follow the Chachamim while the actual individual Derabanan’s are not considered De’oraisa, the same goes for Middos. We can use Torah for a guide of proper Middos but each individual Midda is not on the level of a real Mitzva, while being a Baal Middos Tovos, is a real Mitzva.
Now, I sense a real misunderstanding here. The deeper meaning in any Mitzva is not in contradiction to the simple understanding. It is the deeper understanding. So, like I said, Geneiva is much deeper than making someone unhappy, but greeting someone with a smile is just that, making someone happy. The difference between a Mitzva and not a Mitzva is Rechok Shamayim Ve’aretz, and the difference between those Mitzvos which happen to apply to your friend and those that don’t, is nothing at all (other than the means of rectifying a transgression).
The guy who eats treif does not have to go to everyone in town and say he’s sorry.
Yes, and I related a possibility as to why that is true.
I think you are right that bein adam l’chaveiro is also bein adam l’makom to a larger degree than the reverse. You seem to agree with my opinion that it’s also true the other way around, but to a lesser extent.
If I’m not mistaken, we’re saying the same thing, but in different words.
Klughaussen! If someone erected an idol and then does Teshuva without taking it down, is it worth anything? If you don’t have your friends forgiveness you didn’t rectify the wrong you commited.
The thing here is that you seperate the simple understanding of why these things are important and the deeper understanding of why it is explicit in the Torah. The idea is that certain things are much deeper than meet the eye, that they are everlasting Aveiros. Other Bein Adam Lachaveiro that is not specified in the Torah is important in the general sense of being a Baal Middos Tovos and Ve’ahavta Larei’acha.
Klughaussen? Hooze dat?
Why can’t these two philosophers have bein adam lachaveivo and make peas?
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