Can We Please Sing ונהפוך הוא correctly?
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- This topic has 22 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Reb Eliezer.
March 5, 2023 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #2171322square root of 2Participant
It’s a patach under the נ, not a choilam.
Please. The one tenuah that everyone pronounces the same. How did such a travesty happen?March 6, 2023 7:50 am at 7:50 am #2171423MilhouseParticipant
Huh? Who sings it with a cholam?! “Venow Hapowch”?! That sounds weird. I’ve never heard it, and I would have noticed.March 6, 2023 7:54 am at 7:54 am #2171451levi365248Participant
So how did it happen with”Toiv li Soras picha malfei zohov wa-chOsef.”?March 6, 2023 9:59 am at 9:59 am #2171493akupermaParticipant
Note that Humash didn’t come with a CD indicating how to pronounce things. The technology to produce a record player did not involve plastic or electronics, so in theory one could have made one 3000 years ago, and the fact that instructions weren’t included at Sinai suggests that “perfect” pronunciation is not a mitsva (and patach is a sound that varies considerably among kosher Yidden).
Also note that Purim is associated with consumption of alcohol, which is know to impair correct pronunciation.March 6, 2023 11:11 am at 11:11 am #2171545midwesternerParticipant
Levi: You are surely aware that Toras and Soras are the same word. Ditto with chesef, kesef, chasef and kasef. Changes are only based on syllable count, Ehev”i endings, and “trop”. There is no such word though, and is a distortion of a possuk to say v’noy v’noyhafoch hu, as does a certain composer/singer who has become famous in recent years.March 6, 2023 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2171553OtherTzadParticipant
Can you please hear it correctly? I’d say 99.9 say NA-HAfoich or Na-hapoichMarch 6, 2023 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #2171568ubiquitinParticipant
1) I have never heard it with a cholam, maybe a sh’va na
2) “travesty” might be a bit much. its a song, I don’t hink there is any halachic requirment or even hiddur to pronounce the words correctly.
3) If the vowelezation bothers you wait until you find out the passuk doesnt say “Venahapach venahapahc venahapach venahapach venapachu hu…”March 6, 2023 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2171569midwesternerParticipant
Since some people don’t seem to know what is being discussed, 1.4142135 was referring to Meilich Kohn’s rendition.March 6, 2023 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2171664☕️coffee addictParticipant
It’s called poetic licenseMarch 7, 2023 12:21 am at 12:21 am #2171674ujmParticipant
CA: And where do you see that poetic license is permitted?March 7, 2023 3:14 am at 3:14 am #2171690
I always feel a little twinge of repulsion when people sing baruch hu elokeinu sheBARanu lichvodo, with a komatz, because it means “we created”, instead of seb’ranu, “that He created us” with a shva.
Same goes for likovod hatana elokai, rabbe shimon bar yochai – elokai means “my God” instead of the correct eloki, which means Godly, as in, the Godly tanna.March 7, 2023 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #2171769Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Sounds like the who doesn’t know dikduk can’t be a chusid.March 7, 2023 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2171777Get-r-dunParticipant
So? Haven’t chasidim been mispronouncing words forever?March 7, 2023 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #2171781Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Not the mishnaic chasidimMarch 8, 2023 5:15 am at 5:15 am #2171847ToShmaParticipant
Since בדקדוק עסקינן….
Here is another one..
It shouud be ברכה אחרונה or
בתראMarch 8, 2023 10:46 am at 10:46 am #2171860Reb EliezerParticipant
How many say Hakodash Borchu rather than Hakodash Boruch Hu?March 8, 2023 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2171907ubiquitinParticipant
I give up. How many?March 8, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2171922
Toshma, if it’s aramaic i think it would be ברכתא בתראהMarch 8, 2023 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #2171973kingdavidParticipant
הביאני אל בית היין ודגלו עלי אהבה
אל תיקרי ודלגו אלא ודילוגו עלי אהבה
When there is Ahavas Hashem, the dikduk is not so important…
By the way, is it Dikduk or dikDuk ?March 9, 2023 4:15 am at 4:15 am #2172017GoldilocksParticipant
Reb Eliezer, it’s the same number as the number of people who say “buch ashem” instead of “baruch hashem”. Or, if they’re texting, it’s just “bh”.March 10, 2023 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #2172579ToShmaParticipant
To kingdavid. You meant “ולגלוגו עלי אהבה”March 10, 2023 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2172632
King – the gemara says that refers to an am haaretz who mispronounces words; there’s greatness in amei haaretz, and the fact that the lowest among us are so full of mitzvos shows how incredible klal yisroel is.
But they’re not role models; the gemara is not saying that dikduk isn’t important for the rest of us.March 11, 2023 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2172731Reb EliezerParticipant
The Midrash says:
ילקוט שמעוני שיר השירים רמז תתקפו
אמר רבי אחא אפילו עם הארץ שקורים לאהבה איבה כגון ואהבת ואייבת, אמר הקדוש
.ברוך הוא ודגלו עלי אהבה ודלוגו עלי אהבה
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