Can women talk about Gemara?

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  • #1077425

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    MiPninei HaRav p. 167-168:

    ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??”? ??????? ?????? (???? ????) ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??. ??? ???? ??? ?????”? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? “??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??????” ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????. ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?????. ????, ????? ???, ?? ????? ??????? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ?”? ????? ?????? ??????? ????. ????? ???? ?”???? ???? ????” ??? ????? ??????? ??? ????? (????? ????? ????) “????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????”. [???? ????? ?? ???? ???”? ??????? ????’ ?????? ???? ???”? ??’ ?”?-?”?. ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?’ ??’ ?”?-?”?.] ?

    #1077426

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Aharon Rakeffet (discussing R’ Aharon Lichtenstein’s mother):

    “His mother, zichronah livracha, was a genius, who used to write chiddushei Torah under a boy’s name, publishing it in the Telz Torah journal. Ask R’ Aharon, he’ll tell you the details.” (From a shiur titled “The Viewpoint of Rav Aharon Lichtenstein”)

    “R’ Aharon’s mother was a genius, genius. She, her father was a mankal, one of the administrators of Telz Yeshiva IN TELZ – THE REAL TELZ. Telz Yeshiva published chiddushei Torah, articles, insights. His mother published in the Telz Yeshiva Torah journal with a pseudonym of a man, because Telz, as open-minded as it was, Eli, could not publish, could you imagine Lakewood today putting out – and Telz was not Lakewood, don’t misunderstand me, Telz at that time, not talking about Telz today – but could you imagine Lakewood today putting out a choveret of chiddushei Torah, and there you have a woman? Wow. [or perhaps “ahhh” – PAA] Under a pseudonym.” (From a shiur titled “The Royal Wedding!”)

    #1077427

    Joseph
    Participant

    I would take the veracity of that and such claims with more than a grain of salt.

    #1077428

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: Why? There have been genius women in history capable of publishing Chiddushei Torah, certainly on the level of Yeshivah Bochurim. Why can’t that story be true?

    #1077429

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Why?

    #1077430

    Matan1
    Participant

    Why? Would Rabbi Rakeffet make up a story?

    #1077431

    Joseph
    Participant

    Show me some samples from these supposed publications of Telz with her chiddushei haTorah and what her male pseudonym was.

    Like the Rashi’s daughters wearing Tefilin myth.

    #1077432

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Joseph:

    The difference is that with Rashi’s daughters, the first mention of it is hundreds of years after it happened. R’ Rakeffet, on the other hand, knew R’ Aharon’s mother personally, as he mentions in the shiur (though I did not quote that part), and additionally he says that you can confirm the details with R’ Aharon. That would be very much going out on a limb for someone who is making up a story.

    #1077433

    Joseph
    Participant

    If this were true it should be provable. Let’s see the Telz Yeshiva Torah journals with her articles. Or at least a reference, i.e. Adar 5696 issue, page 7, under the pseudonym of Chaim Yankel Lichtenstein discussing wearing techeiles.

    #1077434

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Some of the journals are on Hebrewbooks. But seeing them won’t prove anything because R’ Rakeffet didn’t mention her name or which issue(s) she wrote in. The fact that you and I don’t know these facts is not a reason to doubt the story. A reason to doubt the story would be for instance that the journal was first initiated after the Lichtensteins came to America. Or that Telz never had a journal. Or something of the sort. If you have any kashyas on the story, by all means post them. But as of now you haven’t asked any kashyas. All you have done is suspect R’ Rakeffet of lying (or perhaps of being lied to, since it is unclear to me if R’ Rakeffet has seen the journal) because you don’t know the details.

    #1077435

    flowers
    Participant

    The books “The midrash says” is written by a woman, even though it’s under her husband’s name.

    #1077436

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant
    #1077437

    Joseph
    Participant

    Call R’ Rakeffet and ask him for her male pseudonym. These stories typically turn out like a fifth hand telephone wire, where she edited for spelling and typos and the like and then she mentioned to someone she found a greater error than a simple typo so she fact checked and corrected things sometimes. That guy passes on she added stuff to articles. The next guy passes on she wrote articles. There’s probably a few more steps in between those. But the people passing on these type of stories (after the telephone wire got through it) are ones with agendas promoting the idea the story gives post-modification.

    #1077438

    Matan1
    Participant

    Joseph, do you have any substantial evidence for your claim?

    #1077439

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m not the one making a claim; I’m the one asking for evidence.

    #1077440

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Joseph:

    It is interesting how your position on the veracity of stories has changed so much in just a few weeks. You will recall that not long ago you tried to bring a certain story (two stories or perhaps two versions of the same story) as evidence and I brought approximately nine kashyas on the story. Not only that, you did not provide any source where I (or anyone reading the coffee room) could read/hear the story. You felt that such a story was good enough evidence; to quote you:

    public verbal comments from Roshei Yeshivos counts as sources

    Additionally, you placed the burden on me to research the veracity of the story.

    Yet when it comes to this thread, we have a story, which you have not come up with a single kashya on. Not only that, I provided you with two sources where you can hear the story. Moreover, the source of the story was intimately familiar with the people in the story, and provided someone (who was perhaps ) even closer to the story (R’ Aharon) who could corroborate it. (Though the second shiur I quoted was given the day R’ Aharon died, the first one was given in 2012 when R’ Aharon was very much alive and capable of confirming/denying the story.) This is hardly an instance of someone repeating a fifth hand story. And then again, this time the burden is on me (the quoter) unlike last time when the burden was on me (the doubter).

    #1077441

    Yosi7
    Member

    I know I’m a little late to the discussion but I will just point out that Rav Moshe Shterbuch paskens that B’zman Hazeh due to Eis La’asos it is a miztva to teach girls torah.

    #1077443

    Joseph
    Participant

    PAA: As I told you in that conversation and I’ll repeat again. Not all roshei yeshivos are equal.

    Yosi7: Torah Shebksav is taught in Beis Yaakovs.

    #1077444

    Matan1
    Participant

    Is there a conversion chart for roshei yeshivos? How does one know who is greater?

    #1077445

    Joseph
    Participant
    #1077446

    Matan1
    Participant

    Let me guess, MO roshei yeshiva don’t rank?

    #1077447

    Joseph
    Participant
    #1077448

    golfer
    Participant

    There is no conversion chart, unfortunately, but I’d like to help you out, Matan. I’m not a man, but since I’m not discussing Gemara, it should be ok.

    A venerable poster suggested an excellent idea on an old thread. It all depends who has the most pictures in the paper in a given time period. The algorithm used in making the determination scrolls back issues of the NYT, The Press, The Yated, Kol Ha’Oilom Kuloi, Mishpacha, Ami, and the 5 Towns Times.

    Hope that helped.

    #1077449

    Joseph
    Participant
    #1077450

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “Not all roshei yeshivos are equal” means what to you, exactly? That Rabbi Rakeffet was lying?

    I also saw your “modern orthodox judaism” thread, riddled with sinas chinam, misinformations (I didn’t want to say lies) and utter disrespect for gedolim. Pasting the link to a thread doesn’t prove anything, if it’s a bad and inaccurate thread.

    #1077451

    Matan1
    Participant

    Joseph, are all your threads a copy of frumteens? Or only most of them?

    #1077452

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yeah, I remember the bad ‘ol days when he just cut and pasted from FT and tried to bury people under walls of text.

    The Wolf

    #1077453

    Matan1
    Participant

    Joseph, come up with some original ideas please. Don’t plagiarize.

    #1077454

    Joseph
    Participant

    IEHB: There is not a single word of sinas chinam or misinformation in the OP of the mo thread. In fact, to the contrary. Even mo folks would agree to its truthfulness. Indeed it is sourced, with citations in large part to RJBS’ own writings. And the proof? You haven’t been able to quote a single sentence from there that is untrue. And you can’t define citing his own writings as being disrespectful. Disagreeing with his positions, yes. Including logically explaining its wrongfulness. If you dispute that, then bring proof to the contrary. If you have any, that is. Since not, there’s nothing more you could say than mischaracterize what’s written there.

    #1077455

    Joseph
    Participant

    From ?????? ????? ????? by Rav Shlomo Volbe ??”?

    Talmid Chochom vs. Talmida Chachama

    Girls nowadays attend elementary school, high school and usually seminary too. They learn a lot Tanach, halacha and hashkafa.

    “Sometimes, however,” says Rav Shlomo Volbe, “when a girl gets married, she discovers (to her disappointment and surprise) that her husband, who she was told was a talmid chochom isn’t as knowledgeable as she is in those areas.”

    “She should know” continues Rav Volbe, “that no matter how much she knows, she will never reach her husband’s ankles in his knowledge and understanding of Torah. There is no comparison to anything she knows to the knowledge that a Ben Torah acquires in yeshiva; not in scope nor in depth.”

    #1077456

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Joseph: I have no time for this now. I will bring a few quotes. We don’t need to debate points, because it’s futile – you want to see Modern Orthodoxy as bad, and find a way you shall.

    “Modern Orthodoxy is nothing but a label.” True, in the sense of yeshivish or chareidi being nothing but a label.

    “The only coherent explanation of Modern Orthodoxy comes form (sic) Rav Soloveitchik in his Five Addresses, which is, in a nutshell, we must compromise our standards in America because traditional Torah standards will not survive here.” Completely untrue. Rav Soloveitchik never once advocated compromising standards, chas veshalom. Read the quotes you yourself provided, and see how he is not compromising anything.

    “Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L, and Rav Schneur ZT’L after him, would under no circumstances even walk into YU.” Source? A) I know that Rav Aharon gave a shiur there B) Certainly someone who wouldn’t enter YU would not meet with the Rosh Yeshiva of YU; yet strangely, I recall several stories and pictures which show the mutual respect between Rav Soloveitchik and both Rav Aharon and Rav Schneur. (see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-mo )

    “Please understand, YU is a business, not a Yeshiva” If you make the terms exclusive, so is BMG (Rav Aharon Kotler’s position was “CEO”)

    “In YU, Dr. Lamm, though he was merely President, and not Rosh Yeshiva,” – Let me stop you there: patently false. Rabbi Dr. Lamm held the official title of Rosh HaYeshiva

    “The unacceptable socializing that goes on between the YU boys and Stern girls” – How much do you know about it to deem it unacceptable?

    “the partying” – huh?

    “the teaching of Gemorah to girls” – they hold it’s ok; that’s what this thread is about

    “the Zionism” – come on, now.

    “the allowance of toeiva clubs” – see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-mo to understand how this is not true

    “The fact that the President of a “Yeshiva” can get up and refer to Bnei Torah as ‘cavemen'” – a hateful twisting and misquotation of his words

    “And you can have an Avi Weiss and others like him teaching under its auspices” – Excuse me. I must be on another planet.

    #1077457

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yeshivish and chareidi are not self-imposed labels. MO is. RAK did not enter YU. Meeting the RY elsewhere is less of a statement. BMG is a yeshiva not a business. Dr. Lamm was originally President before getting the additional title of RY. Rav Elya Svei zt’l shredded Dr. Lamm for his quote equating Bnei Torah with cavemen. Avi Weiss used to teach in YU (until he opened his own shop with YCT) and is still a member of the MO RCA.

    #1077458

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    RAK did not enter YU.

    I’m pretty sure he did.

    #1077459

    Joseph
    Participant

    That argument’s been hashed out here a few times in the past, but to my knowledge neither he nor Rav Shneur did so, and particularly by design not. (Much as Rav Elchonon indisputably refused to enter there when he visited the US.) I know some claimed he gave a shiur there or something but I believe that is misinformation. Rav Ahron said many times he wouldn’t go in. And Rav Shneur waited outside during a student’s funeral in YU.

    #1077460

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I know some claimed he gave a shiur there or something but I believe that is misinformation.

    The fellow who told me he attended that shiur doesn’t agree with you.

    #1077462

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Hey, Joe, was she writing for Telz before or after R. Shkop was at YU?

    #1077463

    Sam2
    Participant

    Can we stop this dumb line that “MO” is self-identifying while “Chareidi” isn’t? Look through the T’shuvos of R’ Shternbuch, the Minchas Yitzchak, the Tzitz Eliezer, R’ Ovadia, and R’ Elyashiv. The word “Chareidi” shows up a lot.

    #1077464

    Joseph
    Participant

    I said self-imposed not self-identify. MO was self-selected to identify and differentiate themselves while chareidi was imposed on them by outsiders whereas they never sought to group themselves.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/who-is-a-chareidi

    #1077465

    MDG
    Participant

    “chareidi was imposed on them by outsiders ” – from above.

    What’s your proof?

    _

    ” It originated in Eretz Yisroel as a way to describe those who followed the Eidah HaChareidis….” – from “who-is-a-chareidi” thread

    So the Eidah used the word “charaid” to describe themselves.

    _

    You bring no proof and your words contradict.

    #1077466

    Joseph
    Participant

    What proof? There is no proof that something didn’t happen because it didn’t happen.

    It’s the same as “Orthodox”. The term Orthodox was also imposed by non-Orthodox.

    The Eidah may have used the term for themselves; but today it is used to describe a community far more than just the Eidah, and they never selected this term.

    #1077467

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    “Orthodox” = “right opinion” in Greek. Where is your proof that this was made by non-orthodox, and why does that make any sense to call them the “right opinion”?

    Chareid = tremble. I’m pretty sure chareidim gave themselves that name, to show that they “tremble” in their service of hashem

    #1077468

    Joseph
    Participant

    How about you prove that either those called Orthodox or Chareidi adopted either of those names for themselves. Neither of them took those names upon themselves. This is a simple non-controversial (in the real world) historical fact. What kind of negative proof do you want? A video of the early reform calling those they broke away from Orthodox? Even the Oxford English Dictionary doesn’t know the exact origin of many words.

    #1077470

    MDG
    Participant

    “How about you prove that either those called Orthodox or Chareidi adopted either of those names for themselves.”

    How about you prove that the MO leadership gave themselves that name. Like when did they sit around and decide that?

    #1077471

    Joseph
    Participant

    The name isn’t the critical point. The critical point is that the MO broke away from traditional Orthodoxy (what is now called Chareidim) and organized themselves as a separate movement. (See the MO thread linked above for this point. And see the Who is a Chareidi thread linked above for the point that “Chareidim” are not a movement.)

    #1077472

    MDG
    Participant

    “The name isn’t the critical point. “

    So why did you bring it up?

    Also, like I asked you before, if you consider yourself Charaidi, why are you on the internet so much?

    #1077473

    Matan1
    Participant

    Joseph, are you kidding? You really think that Kollel was always the norm, and that woman were the primary breadwinners? Or that everyone wore black hats?

    Chareidim created their own movement. At least as much as MO did.

    #1077474

    Joseph
    Participant

    MDG: That topic was introduced to this thread by someone else. Who said I consider myself a chareidi? (See the Who is a Chareidi thread for the answer.)

    Matan: Chareidim didn’t create a movement and still aren’t a movement. (See the Who is a Chareidi thread.)

    Regargidng Kollel: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kollel-talmud-torah-kneged-kulam

    #1077475

    MDG
    Participant

    Joseph,

    What do you consider yourself?

    #1077476

    Matan1
    Participant

    Not to get off topic, but is very shver to use the Rambam as a proof for kollel. When he says that anyone can join shevet Levi, he means to teach Torah, not to sit and learn.

    Plus, the Rambam also clearly writes than one cannot receive money for learning.

    Chareidim started a movement when learning in kollel is the norm, going against the status quo of hundreds of years of Jewish history!

    #1077477

    Joseph
    Participant

    MDG: A Jew. End quote.

    Matan: How terrible it is that so many people are learning in kollel, no? It’s also become the norm, going against hundreds of years of history, to use air conditioning, running water and electricity. Widespread air conditioning is okay but widespread kollel is not okay? Besides, today and at any time over the past 65 years most Jews (by far) have been working and not in kollel. So why are you so upset with the people who learn Torah? Regarding getting paid, see the linked thread’s discussion on the Halachah in the Ramah and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah permitting being paid.

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