Changed Topic of Shiur – Do I Have A Right To Be Disappointed?

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  • #597960
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A shul in my neighborhood sponsors a shiur on Wednesday nights during the summer. The shul does this as a public service to the community. They do not charge for the shiur and, in fact, provide dinner to people attending the shiur (although I never partake in the dinner). It should also be pointed out (if it makes any difference) that I am not a member of the shul.

    Tonight’s shiur was to be on the topic of polygamy, a subject which I find personally interesting*. As a result, I went to the shul after Mincha and attended the shiur.

    However, as it turns out, the person giving the shiur decided to change the subject and instead talk about shadchanus and brokerages — a somewhat related subject, but not really something that I had an interest in. I quickly found myself bored by the shiur and left after about fifteen to twenty minutes (I did try).

    I found that I was disappointed by the change of topic. Had the speaker mentioned that he was going to speak about shadchanus and brokerages from the start, I would probably not have attended at all. In a way, I almost feel cheated.

    My question is this: do I have any real justification for feeling disappointed and cheated? After all, it’s not as if the shul actually owed me a shiur. They were providing a free service to the community. Am I a kafui tov for being disappointed concerning the shiur which was being provided for free?

    Or do I have a legitimate complaint** in that I may have made other plans had I not been misled about the topic?

    The Wolf

    * No, I have no actual interest in having two or more wives. One is quite enough, thank you very much. My interest is strictly academic.

    ** Not that I’m going to ask for damages or anything like that.

    #788254
    oomis
    Participant

    Sure you do, Wolf. You were disappointed and you have a right to feel that way. If you went to an ice cream parlor that was giving free pistachio ice cream and you thought you were getting pistachio ice cream but were served vanilla (which is still pretty good, but just not what you were expecting), you would have a right to feel “cheated” even if it was free. HOWEVER, in my humble opinion, you should not give VOICE to that disappointment to the person who gave the shiur etc, in view of the facts you stated regarding it being a free shiur, not being a member of that shul, etc. If you paid good money to attend the shiur, then you have a right to express your dissatisfaction.

    #788255
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Don’t worry, oomis. Other than this post, I haven’t said anything to anyone.

    The Wolf

    #788257
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Disappointed ? Is this what’s disapponts you ? How about disappointment when a 9 year old child is schechted ?

    Fine. If you want to believe I’m not disappointed by that because I dare to be disappointed about something else, so be it.

    Why didn’t you just go all the way and accuse me of actually *cheering* the murder?

    The Wolf

    #788258

    Wolf your feeling of disappointment, and all other questions regarding the Wed. night shuir need to be directed to Shul Member who gave the Shuir. Just ask the speaker why he changed the theme, and work it out with him.

    #788259
    real-brisker
    Member

    wolf – Why do you think if something is free one has a right to take advantage of you. Maybe you cant have taynos on them (because its not like something you were owed and didn’t get), but after all its not right of them.

    #788260
    always here
    Participant

    JMO~ you’re ALWAYS entitled to your feelings & opinions. but this is no biggie, so move on. 🙂

    #788261
    Burech Bendit
    Participant

    I am a member of this shul, just wanted to make sure you are aware that everyone, members and non-members, are welcome to eat dinner and enjoy. We make sure to order plenty of food and have the caterer on stand -by if we need more. Hope you come to the other shiurim. The topic change was last minute at the request of some of the atendees. Thank you

    #788262
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    You definitely have the right to feel disappointed; you spent the time to come out and here a shiur on something you weren’t interested in. While they have no obligation to provide free shiurim for you, it was inconsiderate of them to change topics without notice. Someone should mention that to the organizers.

    #788263
    adorable
    Participant

    You can be disappointed (that does not mean angry, I mean just disappointed) but nothing more than that and I dont think you should make a big deal about it. You might not know why the speaker had to change the topic last minute.

    #788264
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I think you do have justification for feeling disappointed, though given the fact that the shiur was free as a public service, and the possibility that there may have been a miscommunication between the organizers and the presenter, I think you are also correct that you probably shouldn’t say anything.

    I feel that the reason you may question whether you have the right to feel disappointed comes because what the shul is doing, offering a free shiur to the whole community plus dinner, is a very nice, upright thing to do. That factor acts as an emotional counterweight to your disappointment.

    So here’s a parallel situation. Suppose I advertised in a paper that I wanted to give away a certain rare item for free . You have been interested in acquiring that very item for some time, so you make a long schlep over to my place to get the item (let’s assume you didn’t call to confirm, but somehow knew the item wasn’t taken yet). When you arrive, I say that I’ve changed my mind and want to keep the item, but here’s a different item for free that has the same monetary value. Would you feel disappointed? Would you have the right to? After all, your time was spent in getting there.

    In the above case, I wouldn’t think “damages” should be paid, but a statement of “I came a long way and unfortunately this wasn’t the item I was expecting” followed by an apology to you would seemingly be justified. After all, it was my advertisement that was responsible for bringing you out.

    #788265
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I forgot to mention that the reason I agree that you shouldn’t say anything in the shiur case (unlike the free item case I imagined above) is because of the niceness of what the shul is doing.

    In other words, I feel that your disappointment is justified, but given that the shul is going out of its way to do something nice for the community, it’s a good thing that you cut them slack.

    #788266
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    OK, I apparently need to clarify a few points here.

    1. I never had any intention about confronting anyone concerning the situation. I tend to be VERY non-confrontational in my nature. As such, even if I was sure I was 100% in the right, I would still not have said anything about it. So any suggestions that I should confront the organizers or members or not confront them are appreciated, but really beside the point.

    2. Yes, the dinner is open to everyone. My comment was really not about the dinner, since I had no intention of partaking in it even if the shiur was on the original topic. My own personal beliefs are that as someone who is not a member and does not contribute to the shul (aside from some coins tossed into the pushka when it’s passed around during davening), I have no right to avail myself of food and drink offered by the shul. Yes, the members will say otherwise and that I am invited to join — but I would feel VERY uncomfortable doing so. But, again, the dinner is beside the point — I wasn’t going for the dinner.

    3. The real question is whether or not one has a right to be disappointed when a favor being done for them free of charge turns out to be something else. I had no right to expect a shiur at all — had the shiur been cancelled in it’s entirety, I would certainly have no cause for complaint (it’s not like I drove hours to get there — I live within walking distance). So, in the end, instead of offering a free shiur on topic A, I’m offered a free shiur on topic B. No one questions the right of the shul to do so — after all, they’re doing this as a favor and service to the community out of the goodness of their hearts. The only question is that am I a kafui tov for being disappointed in the shul for changing topics? Is a kafui tov someone who looks at a free shiur on topic B and is disappointed that it wasn’t what he wanted? Shouldn’t I just have been happy with what was offered?

    I’ve had some time to think about this since last night. Ultimately, I think, I probably have no cause for feeling disappointed. I’ve begun to consider whether or not having feelings of disappointment about the situation are really just indications of selfishness on my part (e.g. *I* didn’t get what *I* wanted out of it). Everyone else, it seems, enjoyed the shiur — so perhaps it’s just a character defect on my part that I need to work on, and perhaps not learn to be so selfish.

    Thank you all for your responses. They are appreciated (except one which has since been deleted).

    The Wolf

    #788267
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “I quickly found myself bored by the shiur and left after about fifteen to twenty minutes”.

    Wolf, I’m not with you on this one. First, the shiur was not so off the topic; they both dealt with Ishus. It’s not like the shiur was supposed to deal with Pesach but was changed to the Halachic Status of the Mustache.

    Also, a good magid shiur/darasha should keep your attention no matter what the topic is and a bad one will put you to sleep, no matter what the topic is.

    #788268
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    they both dealt with Ishus.

    Ishus is a pretty broad category. Would you say that a shiur on the wording of a kesubah is a substitute for a shiur on the halachos of whom a kohen gadol can marry?

    Would you say that a shiur on inheritance laws is a substitute for a shiur on contracts since they’re both N’zikin?

    Also, a good magid shiur/darasha should keep your attention no matter what the topic is and a bad one will put you to sleep, no matter what the topic is.

    I did not comment on the quality of the maggid shiur since, to be fair, I didn’t give him a chance. Once he started in on a different topic, my disappointment “turned me off” to the point where I was no longer interested.

    The Wolf

    #788269
    Another name
    Participant

    Wolf, Since this is not for monetary profit or gain, they didn’t “cheat” you. But you still have a right to be disappointed, the way one would be if a trip was changed due to weather conditions.

    Mentchlichkeit would have dictated them forewarning the mass (even a sign on the door) so that people would be aware of the change in plans (I’m sure they weren’t thinking)- perhaps that would be a more profitable topic of discussion.

    #788270
    oomis
    Participant

    Wolf, I didn’t mean for you to think I was implying that you WOULD say something. I am also a non-confrontational type, and I myself would have been disappointed but would have said nothing. I won’t even return a badly prepared main dish to a resturant kitchen (too afraid they will spit in my food). I still feel that you had a right to feel disappointed, free shiur or not. I probably would not have left, though. I feel the speaker could be embarrassed by that.

    #788271
    real-brisker
    Member

    Wolf – Being disapointed dosen’t have to mean that you are upset and have a complaint about them. You can be disapointed cause you wasted your time, but on the other hand you don’t need to be upset at them.

    #788272
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf – Being disapointed dosen’t have to mean that you are upset and have a complaint about them. You can be disapointed cause you wasted your time, but on the other hand you don’t need to be upset at them.

    Understood. The question, however, was do I have a *right* to be disappointed. The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that being disappointed about it is selfishness, and hence, I only have as much right to it as I have a right to be a selfish monster (which is to say, none).

    The Wolf

    #788273
    real-brisker
    Member

    Wolf – Disappointment is a feeling, you don’t have to be right or wrong in order to have this feeling, if you have it – you have it, It doesn’t have anything to do with, should I have not gotten disappointed. If you got disappointed then you obviously are, and there is nothing wrong.

    #788274
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    if you have it – you have it

    Anger is a feeling too; and we’re often told about how dangerous and bad it is — even if it’s not acted upon. Why should selfish disappointment be any different?

    The Wolf

    #788275
    Droid
    Member

    Because the Torah tells us anger is wrong and doesn’t tell us disappointment is wrong.

    #788276
    adorable
    Participant

    anger is a much stronger emotion and people generally act upon their anger and get all worked up. if you want to be disappointed thats fine but dont go and act all rash because of it.

    #788277
    real-brisker
    Member

    Wolf – If your hungry you are hungry, if your tired your tired, if your dissappointed (nothing wrong with) then your disappointed, how do you make yourself not disappointed?

    #788278
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    but dont go and act all rash because of it.

    Other than this thread, I have not acted upon it at all.

    The Wolf

    #788279
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If your hungry you are hungry, if your tired your tired, if your dissappointed (nothing wrong with) then your disappointed, how do you make yourself not disappointed?

    There is no negative connotation with hunger and weariness. There is a negative connotation with disappointment.

    The Wolf

    #788280
    Droid
    Member

    How is there no negative connotation with hunger (or at least any less than with disappointment)?

    #788281
    real-brisker
    Member

    Wolf – Can you answer the second part.

    #788282
    Kate
    Member

    I do not think being disappointed equals to being an ingrate.

    #788283
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    how do you make yourself not disappointed?

    You can train yourself to lower your expectations. If you expect nothing, then you can’t be disappointed.

    I should train myself not to expect a shiur simply because it’s announced. After all, what if (God forbid) something happened to the person giving the shiur. Would I have a right to be disappointed then? Of course not. As such, I have to learn not to be so selfish as to expect things.

    The Wolf

    #788284
    Another name
    Participant

    Wolf, I don’t understand your last statement. Emotions are normal and define our human nature. It’s what we do with our feelings that matter. You can still be disappointed about something seemingly small as long as you put those feelings to constructive use.

    #788285
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You can still be disappointed about something

    Of course I CAN. I CAN also play in traffic. The question is not whether I *can* be disappointed but rather if it’s *right* for me to be disappointed. I’ve come to the conclusion that the answer to that question is a firm “no.” I had no right to expect anything (especially given the fact that the shul does this for free and I’m basically “leeching” off of them anyway) and hence no real right to be disappointed.

    The Wolf

    #788286
    Another name
    Participant

    One doesn’t contradict the other. You can miss a light and be late for an appointment and feel bad and be disappointed- even if you have no one in particular that should feel disappointed at. It doesn’t make you a worse person. Just move on and don’t let it aggravate you too much.

    #788287
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I actually think you *should* be disappointed. You wanted to hear a shiur on a specific topic, but you didn’t. It should be the same disappointment as you would feel if you were told that the topic was changed because the scheduled maggid shiur came down with laryngitis – not an upset disappointment, but a disappointment that you didn’t hear the shiur you wanted to.

    Had you gone to the local pizza shop and been told that they ran out of your favorite topping, I would agree that although the normal human emotion would be to feel disappointment, the ideal would be not to. Since, however, we’re discussing talmud Torah, and one is supposed to learn what interests him, disappointment is fully justified.

    #788288
    mosherose
    Member

    If you think yur leeching off the shul then maybe you shouldn’t go to that shul for a shiur or any minyanim? Who gave you the right to take the shul’s food and shiurim if you think it’s leeching off of them. Perhaps Burech Bendit (the person from the shul who posted above) should tell you that your not welcome until you stop leeching and support the shul.

    #788289
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you think yur leeching off the shul then maybe you shouldn’t go to that shul for a shiur or any minyanim?

    Ever hear of Hillel?

    #788290
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Who gave you the right to take the shul’s food and shiurim if you think it’s leeching off of them.

    Perhaps you’re right (for once). Perhaps I should stop “stealing” their services.

    The Wolf

    #788291
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Perhaps you’re right (for once). Perhaps I should stop “stealing” their services.

    Atzas hayetzer. Go to the shiur, and if you want, enjoy the food. The people sponsoring it want you to. It’s a z’chus for them.

    #788292
    oomis
    Participant

    (Mosherose)If you think yur leeching off the shul then maybe you shouldn’t go to that shul for a shiur or any minyanim?

    (DY)Ever hear of Hillel?”

    Good answer. Really good.

    #788293
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    oomis1105, thanks.

    #788294
    mosherose
    Member

    Who gave you the right to take the shul’s food and shiurim if you think it’s leeching off of them.

    Perhaps you’re right (for once). Perhaps I should stop “stealing” their services.

    The Wolf

    If you truly feel that way I’ll speak to the rav of the shul (Rav S.) about keeping you out of the shul so you don’t “steal” their services anymore.

    #788295
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If you truly feel that way I’ll speak to the rav of the shul (Rav S.) about keeping you out of the shul so you don’t “steal” their services anymore.

    That’s fine. If you speak to the Rav of the shul and he says I should be banned from the shul so that I don’t “steal” their services and the like, I will consider myself banned from the shul.

    The Wolf

    #788296
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you speak to the Rav of the shul and he says I should be banned from the shul so that I don’t “steal” their services and the like

    I wouldn’t worry too much about that happening.

    #788297
    mosherose
    Member

    I spoke with the rav and he said that if this person is stealing from the shul then he is not welcome to come back to the shul for the shiurim the dinners or even davening.

    #788298
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I spoke with the rav and he said that if this person is stealing from the shul then he is not welcome to come back to the shul for the shiurim the dinners or even davening.

    Well, then, it’s a good thing he’s not stealing from the shul, so he’s welcome to come.

    #788299
    kapusta
    Participant

    Wolf, do you know mosherose IRL? (Just because his posts are almost always in response to you)

    *kapusta*

    #788300
    basket of radishes
    Participant

    If you think you have the ‘right’ to be disapointed and write an article about it, I ask you, do I have the right to be disapointed that this is a topic I have to think about and consider in my day as well.

    I am sure that you had a right to want to hear a particular shiur, but if someone wants to teach you another topic, be glad if you can.

    Personally I would go to the dinners. Food is good and so is good company.

    #788301
    mosherose
    Member

    “I spoke with the rav and he said that if this person is stealing from the shul then he is not welcome to come back to the shul for the shiurim the dinners or even davening.

    Well, then, it’s a good thing he’s not stealing from the shul, so he’s welcome to come.”

    He himself admitted above that it’s stealing.

    #788302
    mosherose
    Member

    “Wolf, do you know mosherose IRL? (Just because his posts are almost always in response to you)”

    I know who wolf is. I dont think he knows who I am.

    #788303
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He himself admitted above that it’s stealing.

    No, he didn’t.

    Even had he thought he was stealing, I have a right to disagree with him.

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