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Which Chasiduses have a fair or good number of Chasidim who are Sefardic?
Breslov
Breslov has a lot especially in Israel and chabad. The Rebbe sent shluchim to Morocco.
In Los Angeles there’s a Persian chabad shul. In Syrian circles you won’t find many who join a Chasidus. You’ll find this more among Moroccan and yemenite Jews. Some yemenite Jews (not technically sefardi) are in Satmar.
AFAIK, Breslov and Lubavitch in large numbers, Satmar (in their own kehillot), smaller numbers in Belz (mostly BT).
It’s a shame there are any. What happened to communities that produced most of Rishonim and Achronim? There a few Sfardi yeshivos today even in America. They should be strengthened why stray fro your heritage?
Chabad!! That’s a huge one. Breslev. Satmar has a fair number of Sefardim, specifically Syrians from Argentina.
Most of sephardim are into “real chassidim”. The ones mentioned in gemora.
Sensibleyid, I don’t think that most Achronim were Sefadic.
Sephardic and Chassidish don’t belong in the same sentence or even in the same Beis Midrash.
While I agree that one should not stray from your heritage, the fact is that most acharonim were ashkenaz, mainly because the sfardim moved to Europe and became ashkenaz.
Also half the sfardi rishonim, specifically those after 1200 onward, were influenced by ashkenaz. Ramban, ritva, rashba , ran etc..
Once the Europeans started having more influence in Spain, the sfardim pretty much became European, eventually assimilating into European jews over the centuries by the1800s.This also explains the heavy sfardi influence in Europe. Many of the munhagei ashkenaz from the Rema are not kept today, and instead we follow sfardi shitos.
Most “chasidim” today ARE sfardi.
Think Hungary, Romania etc…
Mostly sfardim from the ottoman empire.(Remember R Portugal from Skulen? Remember the Aruch hashulchan from Barbashti? Remember R katzelenbogen? Sat, Katz, karmen, all are sfardim)
Many chasidishe minhagim come from sfardim
To all who are saying that there are no Sephardi Acharonim you are wrong; you just never heard of them. It’s almost racist to claim that because you only learn Ashkenazi acharonim that there are no Sephardi Acharonim. There were many Gedolei Torah in Syria, Iraq, Morocco, etc that you don’t know because their derech is not the Yeshivish derech.
Sefardim have a much closer mindset to Chasidim than non-Chasidish Ashkenazim. And many famous Sefardi Chachamim were very into Chasidishe teachings. This was the case with the Baba Sali, as well as many of his grandchildren, and this is very much the case with today’s ‘Yenuka’.
Sephardim were more influential before expulsion from Spain and Ashkenazim became – after.
There is general history trend here, as Northern Europe became stronger comparing with Mediterranean. There is a possible connection here with increased production of beans in N. Europe that was cross-grown with wheat. Population is generally limited by the amount of available protein, that is mostly coming from meat that requires a lot of grass, etc. Beans added to that, ad also lead to kitniyos (according to a T’Ch who researched this history).
Similarly, Ashkenazi lomdus reflects European science v Arab stagnation from renaissance and up. Bit I do have a lot of sympathy towards Sephardi derech that often addresses issues directly. As we discussed recently, a Sepahrdi graduate of Lakewood criticizes ashkenazim for lack of real lomdus – when you have a method that can reach any conclusion you want, it is not a method (this corresponds to Occam razor; Karl Popper definition of what theory is and to machine learning theories of degrees of freedom and VC dimension).
ZSK – Sephardic and Chassidish don’t belong in the same sentence or even in the same Beis Midrash.
עד כדי כך?! As a Chossid, who learned in Litvish Yeshivos, and is married to a Sephardi woman, I beg to differ. We belong in the same sentence, and the same Beis/Beit Midrash, and the same house, and most importantly the same Beis/Beit Hamikdash, of which there will be only one for all of כלל ישראל.
The Sephardi minhagim and nuschaot entered Chassidus primarily through the works of the Arizal, who himself was the son of an Ashkenazi father and a Sephardi mother. That also led to affinity between the Sephardi Mukubalim and Chassidus. The Abuhatzerah dynasty is one prominent example. דרך אגב, most “Sephardim” today (Iraqi, Persian, most Syrian, most Moroccan, most Tunisian) are not at all descended from “Sepharad”, and are more accurately referred to as “Edot Hamizrach” (except that geographically Morocco is Edot Hamaarav…) Iraqi, Persian, and Yemenite Jews were there for the most part since חורבן בית ראשון. (Yemenis have their own unique and ancient minhagim, and their Halachot are based largely on the Rambam.) Rav Ovadiah Yosef (himself Iraqi/Bavli) was asked by Juan Carlos, the former King of Spain, why those communities refer to themselves as “Sephardim”. He answered that the name “Sephardim” was adopted by all communities who accepted the Beit Yosef/Mechaber (who was in fact “Sephardi”) as their final authority in Halacha.
There were indeed very many great Sephardi Achronim, who most Ashkenazim haven’t heard of. In all fairness, the ‘fame’ of an Acharon usually is related to the availability of his Sefer. Why one particular Sefer or Mechaber becomes known throughout Klal Yisroel, and one doesn’t, often defies logical explanation, only משמיא קא זכו ליה. Among major Sephardi Achronim, just to name a few: The Beit Yosef, the Ramak (Tomer Devorah and many others), Radvaz, Shittah Mekubetzet, Reishit Chochmah, Ein Yaakov, Ramah MiPano, the Alshich, R’ Shlomo Sirilio (on the Yerushalmi), Shiltei HaGiborim, Ramchal, the Ohr HaChaim, Rashash (R’ Shalom Sharabi, Mekubal and Rebbe of the Chida), the Chida, R’ Chaim Palaggi, Abir Yaakov (Abuhatzerah), the Ben Ish Chai, Kaf HaChaim, and many more. The Ohr HaChaim and Chida in particular were prolifically studied and quoted by גדולי החסידות, even more so than by the Sephardim themselves. Geography and finances also affected printing and distribution of Sefarim. Tunisia produced many great Geonim, but their numerous Sefarim were not widely known during their lifetime outside of North Africa. In Yemen, poverty, lack of modern printing technology, and the isolated location, led to many Sefarim remaining in manuscript for centuries. Rav Ovadia’s works, aside from his own Gadlus, are a treasure trove of halachic material culled from the works of many dozens of Sephardi Achronim that he dedicated much of his life to learning and teaching.
Yaakov Yosef: Your wife traded in her Sefardic minhagim for Chasidish minhagim?
Yaakov Yosef A said:
“There were indeed very many great Sephardi Achronim,
who most Ashkenazim haven’t heard of. In all fairness,
the ‘fame’ of an Acharon usually is related to the availability of his Sefer.”__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:In the 1800s of the Common Era, there were many printing presses
in Europe that mass-produced books.But in the Turkish Ottoman Empire,
where most Sephardic Jews lived, at that time,
these printing presses were very rare.A Jew living in the Turkish Ottoman Empire
might have to travel 1,000 miles to publish his book.Even in our times, there are dozens of unpublished manuscripts,
written by the Sephardic Rabbis of the Turkish Ottoman Empire,
that are still manuscripts only, and have NEVER been published!A long list indeed, but in last couple of centuries, Sephardim mostly quote Ben ish Hai and r Ovadia Yosef. Maybe rav’s own teacher or uncle and a couple of mekubalim. Ashkenazi list is way longer. Maybe because we disagree with each other more.
@YYA:
What would be called old-school Sephard/Edot HaMizraḥ – meaning the pre-Zohar/Kabbalah Geonic and Rishon eras (figures such as Rasag, Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Radaq, Ibn Ghayyat, Ibn Janaḥ, etc.) are a completely different world from Chassidus. Chassidus isn’t even on the radar.
That was my intent, not actual separation.
Also, just a note: Ramchal was Yekkish, not Sephardic.
As for whoever said there are no Sephardic Aḥaronim – well that’s just wrong. Like YYA said, you just haven’t heard of them.
@AAQ: Don’t bring up that thread, this one may be deleted like that one was.
ujm – She davens Sephardi, (and cooks Sephardi, way better than Ashkenazi…), but for Halacha etc. she follows my minhagim. (The same thing applies to an Ashkenazi girl who marries a Sephardi.)
SQUARE_ROOT – Exactly. I mentioned that in brief, but it was a huge issue. There were printing presses in Salonica, Istanbul, or Italy, if you could travel there by boat and be on the road for months or years, like the Chida did. (He was also a Shaliach to raise money for the Jews in Eretz Yisroel, on the way he published his own sefarim, and some others.)
AAQ – The Ben Ish Chai, and certainly Rav Ovadia, don’t go back “a couple of centuries”… They did gain enormous renown and acceptance of their works during their lifetimes though. Actually, I just mentioned some of the ones who ARE well known. The list of Sephardi Acharonim you haven’t heard of at all is as long as an encyclopedic Teshuvah in Yabia Omer…
Another thing people forget, is that post Spanish Expulsion and numerous other צרות, there simply were fewer Sephardim than Ashkenazim, something which is still true today, in a major way. Although inside Israel, Sephardim are over 50% of the Jewish population (because they tend to be more traditional/religious than the secular Ashkenazim, with everything that implies WRT birth rate and Yeridah/assimilation.)
ZSK said – What would be called old-school Sephard/Edot HaMizraḥ – meaning the pre-Zohar/Kabbalah Geonic and Rishon eras (figures such as Rasag, Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Radaq, Ibn Ghayyat, Ibn Janaḥ, etc.) are a completely different world from Chassidus.
At least now I understand what you meant, but the thread was about Sephardim living today. The Sephardim post-1492 abandoned philosophy almost entirely, for the reasons why see the works of the Hassid Yaabetz (another great Sephardi early Acharon…) who was among those who left Spain. There were Sephardi Rishonim who also differed (in a major way) with the school of thought you mentioned such as: Raavad, Rashba, Rabbeinu Yonah, Ramban, R’ Yosef Gikatila (שערי אורה), R”I Sagi Nahor, R”I d’min Acco, and more. The Geonic era was essentially prior to the Sepharad – Ashkenaz divide, although the debate over philosophy existed already then.
Be that as it may, since the Baal Shem Tov HaKadosh and the Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh (and the Chida who already noted the connection between them) there has been positive interaction between Sephardim and Chassidus, in both directions.
@YYA – Truth be told, and I don’t live under a rock, but outside of Chozrim BeTeshuva, Sephardim joining any sect of Chassidus is a rarety unless the surrounding community is Chassidish.
The Sephardim I associate with and have been to exposed to are very proud of their Sephardic Masoret, particularly the one from Andalucia and don’t care for Chassidus or any of its trappings. And this is from a wide range of individuals – from RZ to Sephardic Charedi, even what would be called “traditional”. Thus, aside for a few Sephardim I recently have interacted who were Chabad, I dont interact with Sephardim who are Chassidish. The very idea strikes me as odd, even though it admittedly really shouldn’t, especially in Israel. (Parenthetically, I’ve obviously heard of Amnon Yitzhak and Shalom Arush, Sephardim who went Breslov.)
I am obviously well aware of the illustrious Catalonian Hakhamim you refer to, but because they tended toward the “mystical” – for lack of a better term, and were influenced to some degree by Chassidei Ashkenaz, they aren’t typically of what I think of as Sephardic, even though they obviously were bonafide Sephardim.
I am not aware of Sephardim abandoning philosophy across the board, despite what Hassid Yaabetz says. It most definitely remained present in Yemen (especially Baladim), communities in Italy, Syria, Iraq, Morocco/Tunisia, etc.
ZSK – Ramchal was not Yekkish, but of the Italian Jewish tradition, which doesn’t neatly fit either into Sepharad or Ashkenaz, although historically, geographically, and culturally, they were more aligned with the Sephardim
YYA: Sephardim were a minority compared to Ashkenazim even before the Spanish Expulsion. In regards to Israel today, according to the Israel Census Bureau, the breakdown is approximately 51/49 in favor of Ashkenazim.
The Italian Jewish you’re referring to that’s neither Ashkenazic nor Sephardic is Italikim.
ZSK: A large portion, indeed likely well over a majority, of current fully Torah observant Sephardim, are religiously observant under Ashkenazic influence. This includes them (or their parents/grandparents) having attended Ashkenazic Yeshivos, etc. A lot of this is the result of the Ashkenazic Torah world having strongly helped their Sephardic brethren remain strongly Torah observant during their transition from the Arab lands to Israel, when the State of Israel spent considerable resources in attempts to secularize the Sephardic immigrants.
This includes a great portion of the contemporary Sephardic religious leadership.
You can easily observe some of these influences in how they dress nowadays similar to the Ashkenazic Torah world, etc. Of course this is a superficial point, but it extends much deeper.
Is anyone here familiar with the migration trajectory of Ashkenazim, Sephardim, etc.? As in, which came from Eretz Yisroel, which from Bavel, etc. And where the separation formed between Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and others.
Of course Ashkenazim and Sephardim aren’t the only groups. There’s the Teimanim, Italkim, Mizrachim, etc., who contrary to some popular thought are not Sephardim.
The Sephardim, of course, are those descending from the Spanish peninsula (Spain, Portugal), hence the name. Which is in Europe, so someone’s earlier comment questioning European influence upon Sephardim doesn’t make much sense.
Genteically. Ashkenazim seem to come from a 100 of _men_. Does not mean that just 100 of them travelled up to Europe, just that only descendants of a 100 survived. True sephardim – from Sefarad – settled from Amsterdam to Turkey after expulsion. joining local communities. I presume everyone from Mediterranean is partly true Sephardi. Not Iraqi/Iranians, Teimani.
YYA > The list of Sephardi Acharonim you haven’t heard of at all is as long as an encyclopedic Teshuvah in Yabia Omer…
Right, that is what I meant – this is whom Sephardim tend to quote. These two. You hear way more from a similar group of Ashkenazim.
YYA:
“Ramchal was not Yekkish, but of the Italian Jewish tradition, which doesn’t neatly fit either into Sepharad or Ashkenaz, although historically, geographically, and culturally, they were more aligned with the Sephardim”.This is incorrect. His siddur was found. It’s essentially Nusach Frankfurt with a few changes. Also, it’s documented that Luzzatto is Italian for Lausitz, meaning Lusatia – Sorbia, in east Germany.
But generally, it is correct that Italians are neither Ashkenaz or Sepharad.
UJM:
The term for such in Hebrew is “להשתכנז”, it is not a positive phenomenon, and it has nothing to do with supposed help from the “Ashkenazi Torah world”. It’s more trying to fit in with the outside culture than anything else.ujm – Is anyone here familiar with the migration trajectory of Ashkenazim, Sephardim, etc.? As in, which came from Eretz Yisroel, which from Bavel, etc. And where the separation formed between Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and others.
The Jewish communities of Iraq and Iran most definitely came from Bavel. The Jews of the island of Djerba, in Tunisia, claim descent from two Mishmaros of Kohanim who were exiled there from Eretz Yisroel at the time of Churban Bayis Sheini. Seeing as Djerba was geographically isolated from the Goyish urban centers, did not get chased repeatedly from place to place like most other kehillos in Golus, and was a major מקום תורה for centuries, they preserved their Mesorah unusually well. The Yemenite Jews were there since Churban Bayis Rishon. Interestingly, certain Teimani minhagim are similar to old Ashkenazi minhagim (the square Kesher Shel Rosh being one example.) Since the last time our ancestors met was probably at the Aliyah LaRegel in the First Beis Hamikdash, that shows an amazing continuity of Mesorah. The first Jews in Western Europe, including both Ashkenaz and Sepharad, were probably those exiled there by the Romans. Afterwards it’s possible some came there from Bavel too, via the Byzantine Empire and Italy.
The emergence of Ashkenazim and Sephardim as distinct groups is generally considered to have started at the end of the Tekufah of the Geonim. Until then, all major Halachic shailos that couldn’t be resolved locally would be sent to the great Yeshivos at Pumbedisa and Sura. Many travelled all the way to Bavel to learn there, like Rabbeinu Gershom did. When Moslem persecution in Bavel, and increasing danger traveling, made that system end, the local Yeshivos took over. In Spain the Yeshivos followed the teachings and Mesorah of Rabbeinu Chananel and the Rif, and in Germany that of Rabbeinu Gershom and his Talmidim (who in turn were the Rebbeim of Rashi). There was a Torah presence beforehand in both places, but everyone was subordinate to the Geonim of Bavel, who had a direct living Mesorah from the Amoraim.
AAQ – The Ben Ish Chai and Rav Ovadia both have large and distinct groups of people who do everything according to their שיטות. The Chida is probably the most frequently quoted mid-era Sephardi Acharon, but I don’t know of any group who follows his פסקים exclusively.
ZSK – I am obviously well aware of the illustrious Catalonian Hakhamim you refer to, but because they tended toward the “mystical” – for lack of a better term, and were influenced to some degree by Chassidei Ashkenaz, they aren’t typically of what I think of as Sephardic, even though they obviously were bonafide Sephardim.
The Raavad was an older contemporary of the Rambam, which would make him decades older than Rabbi Yehuda HeChassid. He refers to a Mesorah of Kabbalah from his (Sephardic) Rebbeim, which would preclude any possibility of influence from Chassidei Ashkenaz, who didn’t exist yet. Rabbeinu Shelomo HaBavli and Rabbeinu Shefatiah (who wrote some of the Ashkenazi Selichos), and Rabbi Shabbetai Donnolo (ספר תחכמוני), among others, were all Mukubalim who lived in Italy in the time of the Geonim. Their works and traditions definitely influenced Chassidei Ashkenaz, and possibly also the ancient Sephardi Mekubalim whose Mesorah reached the Raavad. So there were definitely multiple tracks going on at the same time in Sepharad, going back centuries before the Expulsion.
ZSK – I am not aware of Sephardim abandoning philosophy across the board, despite what Hassid Yaabetz says. It most definitely remained present in Yemen (especially Baladim), communities in Italy, Syria, Iraq, Morocco/Tunisia, etc.
Yemenites aren’t Sephardim at all, and had no connection to the Expulsion and the events leading up to it. Their philosophical tradition stems from Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon (who apparently visited Yemen and taught there for some time, according to their Mesorah), and the Rambam (who communicated with them via letters when he lived in relatively nearby Egypt). Italy at the time of the Expulsion was going through a Renaissance, and it’s cities were cosmopolitan centers, and Syria was still an important stop on the Silk Road before the Age of Exploration got going, so there was a lot of mixing of ideas, including Jewishly, in those places. That being said, there is no question that post-1492 there was definitely a reduction of emphasis on philosophy.
ujm – A large portion, indeed likely well over a majority, of current fully Torah observant Sephardim, are religiously observant under Ashkenazic influence. This includes them (or their parents/grandparents) having attended Ashkenazic Yeshivos, etc.
This is a complicated and sensitive subject, and the breakdown of the numbers depends entirely on how you define “fully Torah observant”. If you use an Ashkenazi Chareidi definition, then that’s called a “No True Scotsman” argument. (No Scotsman ever ran away from battle. Aye, Donald MacRonald did run away? He wasn’t a True Scotsman… = No truly observant Jew wasn’t influenced by Ashkenazim, because anyone who wasn’t influenced by Ashkenazim isn’t a truly observant Jews.)
If you define “observant” as Shomer Mitzvos in the basic sense, which is what most Sephardim were to begin with, then the vast majority cannot be credited DIRECTLY to Ashkenazi influence. (More on that below.)
ujm – A lot of this is the result of the Ashkenazic Torah world having strongly helped their Sephardic brethren remain strongly Torah observant during their transition from the Arab lands to Israel, when the State of Israel spent considerable resources in attempts to secularize the Sephardic immigrants.
This is very true, however unfortunately the number saved were dwarfed by the number lost. The entire Torah world then, less than five years after the Holocaust, was a small and impoverished שארית הפליטה, and not in a position to compete with the Mapai bosses, the Jewish Agency, the שומר הצעיר Kibbutz movement, and other קליפות who played a role in the Shmad.
What did happen, somewhat later on, is that many Sephardi parents who kept their Mesorah of יראת שמים, realized what was going on, and with great מסירות נפש sent their children to Yeshivos, which mostly (though not exclusively) were Ashkenazi. Usually Litvish, some Chabad. Those children in many cases grew up to become תלמידי חכמים who opened their own Sephardic Yeshivot and Talmud Torah, and were מחנך the next generation of Sephardi children, including many who didn’t come from observant homes at that time. There were also Sephardi חכמים who learned לכתחילה in the old Sephardi Yeshivot, such as Rav Ovadia and others, who sent their children to Ashkenazi Yeshivos, and they eventually opened Sephardi Yeshivot that synthesized some elements of the Ashkenazi Derech in learning. Rav Meir Mazuz זצ״ל, who recently passed away, learned by his father in Djerba, then in a Lubavitcher Yeshiva opened in Tunisia, where he became Rosh Yeshiva, and then he opened a Sephardi Yeshiva in Bnei Brak where he was מקפיד to follow the Tunisian דרך הלימוד.
While all of this was happening, many if not most Sephardim remained basically שומרי מצוות to some extent, despite the best efforts of the Zionists. They built Shuls which the vast majority of them attended, and they maintained their Minhagim and distinctive sincerity, Emunah, and legendary respect for חכמים. The products of the various Yeshivos mentioned became Rabbanim, Mechanchim, and Kiruv workers, who helped significantly raise the level of שמירת המצוות and Torah learning among the Sephardim at large over the last 40 or so years, so now it is much more common to see Sephardi Baalei Batim who are truly learned and מדקדקים במצוות. It is also important to note that Sephardim typically see the entire community as an organic whole, where everyone feels they belong even if not everyone is on the same level of observance, so it would be very hard to do an accurate breakdown of the numbers.
So, bottom line, it’s true that the מסירות נפש of the פעילים and others eventually bore fruit, and there is an Ashkenazi connection to much of the contemporary Sephardi Torah world, through different channels, most of them indirectly.
ZSK – This is incorrect. His siddur was found. It’s essentially Nusach Frankfurt with a few changes. Also, it’s documented that Luzzatto is Italian for Lausitz, meaning Lusatia – Sorbia, in east Germany.
The connection to Lusatia goes back over 250 years before the birth of the Ramchal. The custom (and Halacha) was that individuals (as opposed to entire communities exiled together) who migrated to other countries adopted the local minhagim. So that, together with marrying into the local Jewish community for centuries, means that for all practical purposes he wasn’t much of a “Yekke”, just as the Shelah, Aruch HaShulchan, and Skulener Rebbe weren’t “Sephardim”
The piece about the Ramchal’s siddur is fascinating. Where did you see that? There is part of a מחזור for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur extant with handwritten glosses of the Ramchal, which were published. This is the first I’ve heard about a whole Siddur.
ZSK > It’s more trying to fit in with the outside culture than anything else.
Sephardim are very much keen on blending with the culture. So, in Arab countries, they dressed like Arabs. Now, when they decided they belong to the charedim, they started dressing like them. It is somewhat ironic – as the charedi garb is the statement of sticking out (after Poles stopped wearing that style), so Sephardim are wearing same but with a totally opposite kavanah: to blend in.
YYA> When Moslem persecution in Bavel, and increasing danger traveling, made that system end, the local Yeshivos took over.
it has also something to do with what happened within the muslim empire – at some point, it allowed easy travel to Bavel, and later on, connections were severed. I don’t recall details right now.
“The Raavad was an older contemporary of the Rambam, which would make him decades older than Rabbi Yehuda HeChassid. He refers to a Mesorah of Kabbalah from his (Sephardic) Rebbeim, which would preclude any possibility of influence from Chassidei Ashkenaz, who didn’t exist yet. Rabbeinu Shelomo HaBavli and Rabbeinu Shefatiah (who wrote some of the Ashkenazi Selichos), and Rabbi Shabbetai Donnolo (ספר תחכמוני), among others, were all Mukubalim who lived in Italy in the time of the Geonim. Their works and traditions definitely influenced Chassidei Ashkenaz, and possibly also the ancient Sephardi Mekubalim whose Mesorah reached the Raavad. So there were definitely multiple tracks going on at the same time in Sepharad, going back centuries before the Expulsion.”
I’m clearly remembering incorrectly. Thanks for the correction.
“Yemenites aren’t Sephardim at all, and had no connection to the Expulsion and the events leading up to it. Their philosophical tradition stems from Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon (who apparently visited Yemen and taught there for some time, according to their Mesorah), and the Rambam (who communicated with them via letters when he lived in relatively nearby Egypt). Italy at the time of the Expulsion was going through a Renaissance, and it’s cities were cosmopolitan centers, and Syria was still an important stop on the Silk Road before the Age of Exploration got going, so there was a lot of mixing of ideas, including Jewishly, in those places. That being said, there is no question that post-1492 there was definitely a reduction of emphasis on philosophy.”
Re Teimanim: You’re being incredibly pedantic but I suspect you knew what I meant – that I don’t typically associate Kabbalah with Sephardim + Edot HaMizrach. I’m well aware that Teimanim are not “Sephardim” in the Spanish-expulsion sense and where their philosophical tradition comes from.
It may be that the study of philosophy dropped after 1492, but it certainly did not disappear to the degree you imply.
ZSK – You’re being incredibly pedantic but I suspect you knew what I meant – that I don’t typically associate Kabbalah with Sephardim + Edot HaMizrach.
The Sephardim themselves certainly do, for the last five centuries. Just look at the list of famous Mekubalim over that period of time. I am curious about the Ramchal’s Siddur, if you have more information.
ZSK and AAQ – ״משתכנזים״ is a different and more recent phenomenon of Sephardi bochurim from Chareidi homes who attended Ashkenazi Yeshivos and adopted Ashkenazi mannerisms and even minhagim. If it is מחזק them to do so, שיהיו בריאים/זאל זיין געזונט.
@YYA: It may be that Machzor. I don’t have the source on hand – I borrowed it several years ago. It was a book published by Machon Masores Ashkenaz (they’re very reliable when it comes to tracing anything Yekkish or Nusach Ashkenaz) about Yeshivos in Germany. I seem to recall the same source noting that the local Shul in Padua where Ramchal davened was Yekkish.
The Machzor bears the hallmarks of Yekkish Nusach Ashkenaz, particularly “וישמחו ה׳ אוהבי שמך” right before the closing of the Kiddushas HaYom bracha in both the Shmoneh Esrei for Shabbos and and the one for Chagim. No other Ashkenazi Siddurim have it, they all use “וינחו…ישראל מקדשי שמך” for Shabbos and “וישמחו…ישראל מקדשי שמך” on the 3 Regalim. The only other Siddur such phraseology appears in is Baladi Teimani Siddurim and it’s one of a great number of overlaps between Baladi and Yekkish Siddurim.
And again, I will point out that there are Italian Ashkenazim who can trace their families back hundreds of years. Their Nusach is essentially Yekkish and this was confimed more than once by an Italian Ashkenazi living in Italy.
Re the rest of your post: I know how Minhag HaMakom works as well as why it doesn’t really work in EY.
Ashkenaz jewery is likely from Rome. We do know that there was a significant Jewish community in Rome at the time of the Mishna. It makes sense that many of them migrated to general Europe during the time of Charlemagne.
Fairly recently some group came across an old Jewish cemetery and tested their DNA form their teeth. It showed a very varied background, suggesting merchants who happened to grab the opportunity and came to Europe for business. This makes sense at that point since the aforementioned Charlemagne invited Jews and made things safe.
YYA, I am not sure that it is always to their benefit to switch minhagim, they then might become more “frum” than their grandparents but they lose the sense of their identity that existed in their family. A number of movements, active in teaching non-religious or problematic, presume that it is the best for those people to “join the movement”. Perhaps, the activists do not simply have knowledge to guide someone in a different tradition. A better Rav would say – we do X, your tradition does Y.
Apparently, R Yaakov Kamenetsky on his late-life visit to Israel said that maschiach will come from R Auerbach’s yeshiva as they had top shiurim in Hebrew rather than Yiddish, making them accessible to Sephardim.
HaLeivi, I saw DNA research showing that most Ashkenazim come from a population of a 100 men (not women), this is consistent with merchant theory.
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