March 22, 2009 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #641899
If you are going to find non-halachic reasons to justify calling Torah behavior “boorish”, I imagine Hashem is NOT pleased.
I doubt very much that Hashem thinks of derech eretz as not being in accordance with the Torah. The behavior of MANY frum people is extremely boorish at times, and they use the Torah as an excuse for their ill-mannered and obnoxious ways. That is why we have a concept of chosid shoteh. My husband’s elderly aunt fell in the street in Boro Park. At least a dozen able-bodied Yeshivah bochurim and men passed her by, seeing she could not get up by herself, and refrained from “negiah” even in a clear emergency. She had to wait for a woman to approach her to help her up, even after asking for help. THIS is YIDDISHKEIT???????? Unfortunately, this aunt was not frum, and the chillul Hashem that occurred as a result of these great tzaddikim refusing to help an elderly lady in distress, was that for the rest of her life she had no respect for any aspect of frumkeit, and offered many a “bracha” to obviously frum people whenever she saw them. How would you feel had it been your mother, wife, sister, or daughter over the age of 12?
On the other hand, I was shopping recently, and had my hands full, and a yeshivah bochur (well past his young teens) held open a door for me and offered to help me with my bags (I didn’t accept, but I was very delighted to see this, and told him his mother brought him up right, and should be very proud of him). Frum does not = bulvan unless you allow it to. A behaima will always find a justification for his or her bad behavior, when there is none. Our mitzvos are designed to make us BETTER human beings, not worse ones.March 22, 2009 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #641900Chuck SchwabParticipant
It is quite telling about those that see the Torah mehalach as not being derech eretz’dik. These are the same folks that refer to those that follow the Torah as boorish, ill-mannered, obnoxious, etc. They apply these derogatory labels to those not in accordance with their left-wing ideologies. They only see, and indeed seek, any negative incidents to use as a sledgehammer against Torah followers.March 22, 2009 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #641901
Chuck, with all due respect, you have never seen a person in “frum attire” doing something extremely improper?
and Yes, I have seen people play the “frum” card when it is improper to do so. How many people lie or say “well telling you would be loshon hara” when one is looking into a shidduch (btw, real gedolim have a LOT to say on the subject of people playing the lashon hara card at the wrong times). Have you not seen people pushing and shoving in order to be one of the 1st ten people in shul for minyan? Do they get more schar the harder they push?
The torah is Kodesh, some people who CLAIM to represent it are chelbona.March 22, 2009 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #641902CrashOverrideMember
@tzippi – I fully agree with this. The boy should definately be prepared to travel to meet the girl (assuming, of course, that it is with the serious intention of shidduchim).March 22, 2009 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #641903
Chuck, with all due respect to you, IMO, your thought process about this issue is less than correct. The Torah mehalech is not the problem. It is the people who misinterpret the mehalech to justify their own bad behavior, and twist the truth, bending the halacha to fit their ideologies, who are actually the left-wingers.March 23, 2009 12:15 am at 12:15 am #641904
Unfortunately we live in a me world where many people are self centered and either are so self absorbed with their thoughts that they fail to see an elderly person right in front of them, or they feel doing a mitzvah will RL prevent them from arriving on time for their appointment. I think Yiddishkeit needs to return to the positive values (chesed, derech eretz, achdus…) of the not so distant past as a means to revive menthlikeit.March 23, 2009 12:21 am at 12:21 am #641905
yank, your diagnosis and your treatment are not compatible. If the people are self-centered then teaching derech eretz won’t help, they will only view derech eretz as “that which people need to treat me with” People need to be trained to have a higher degree of awareness. Awarness of themselves, of their spouse, of their situation and their surroundings.March 23, 2009 3:18 am at 3:18 am #641906
p t-You are right being aware and developing and raising our level of emunah and bituchin are all part of revitalizing Chivalry. Garden Of Emunah is an excellent book to read to help in that pursuit.March 23, 2009 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #641907
I was not alluding to chivalry!!!! I was talking about being a mench. One has NOTHING to do with the other!!!!!March 23, 2009 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #641909
I was not alluding to chivalry!!!! I was talking about being a mench. One has NOTHING to do with the other!!!!!
I don’t necessarily agree with that statement. Chivalry refers to the behavior of the knights of old, who were protectors and defenders of those weaker than themselves. While women do not nowadays have to be thought of as weaklings, it is still good manners and a protective gesture (which shows thoughtfulness towards the other person) to be chivalrous. And that IS PART OF BEING A MENSCH. Menschlechkeit is demonstrated by acting in a manner that shows thought and consideration for others.March 23, 2009 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #641910squeakParticipant
I always found it humorous that another way of referring to chivalry is knights errantMarch 30, 2009 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #641911charlie brownMember
yank, your diagnosis and your treatment are not compatible. If the people are self-centered then teaching derech eretz won’t help, they will only view derech eretz as “that which people need to treat me with”
I just saw this post and its sooooo true. Anyone have any ideas on how to get a self centered kid to become more aware that others have feelings too?March 31, 2009 1:01 am at 1:01 am #641912
A self centered individual is one who lives on their own planet. Nobody else exists.
Learning to treat others equally and fairly is like learning a foreign language. Until the child learns this “foreign language” they will be miserable lonely creatures who will grow up into spoiled unrealistic adults.
If a parent knew the language they would probably not be asking the question.
More than this, they will not know what on earth I am talking about.March 31, 2009 1:11 am at 1:11 am #641913aussieboyParticipant
charlieborwn and yankdownunder: There are diffrent levels of self centeredness. And just because the person is self centered does not mean they can not be shown that other people exist too.March 31, 2009 1:31 am at 1:31 am #641914an open bookParticipant
charlie brown: i don’t know if this is what you’re looking for, or it’s a step for those who are already not self-centered. but my parents will often say to a kid, teaching them to be considerate, “if (whatever pushed them to do it) happened, would you want him/her to do it to you?”. it helps them see it from the other’s perspective, i think.March 31, 2009 4:53 am at 4:53 am #641915
aob- This is rather complicated not knowing what CB means by a self centered kid, I think there is a whole spectrum of Self Centered Children from very young to Adolescence. Maybe it depends on how self absorbed he or she is, whether they can learn to empathize with another person. Some children are born with this Middot, and some children do not understand about verbal and other kind of Social Cues so for them it would be like learning a completely new language. Then I think there are other children no matter how much love and attention are shown to them, they are almost like a bottomless pit it is never enough. The last group sadly can become very controlling and demanding.
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