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  • #1169707

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I’m surprised by the posters writing that the idea that the first 6 Days of Creation were longer than 24 hours is controversial. I don’t know the source, but I always learned that in school, and I went to very Yeshivish schools when I was younger. I really am under the impression that it’s not a controversial point of view, although I don’t have a source off-hand.

    #1169708

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I’m surprised by the posters writing that the idea that the first 6 Days of Creation were longer than 24 hours is controversial. I don’t know the source, but I always learned that in school, and I went to very Yeshivish schools when I was younger. I really am under the impression that it’s not a controversial point of view, although I don’t have a source off-hand.

    As stated by Sam2, Rav Elyshiv stated anyone who did not belive the world was 6000 years old was a Koifer

    I think it was Rav AVigdoe Miller or Rav Shimon Schwab (I could be wrong here) said he belived the world was 6000 years old , he did not think it was Kefirah to belive it was older

    #1169710

    I go to a modern orthodox school, and are science teacher was a rabbi and taught evolution. I’m going into 8th grade. How old r u guys.

    #1169711

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Livelovelaugh – I apologize. I just read your post more carefully and realized that you weren’t positing that humans and animals share a common ancestor. In terms of what you are positing – that some aspects of evolution may not be against the Torah – I don’t know enough about the topic to be able to say, but I would think that it could be a possibility.

    In any case, when Frum people come out against evolution, I don’t think that’s what they are talking about. They are talking about the idea that people come from monkeys. In psychology, evolution is brought in in order to make a point that is against the Torah. They are trying to explain that people are the way they are simply because of some kind of evolution process. Basically, they are trying to take G-d out of the picture.

    For example, there is a theory that the reason why people like to be nice to other people has to do with evolution and the fact that those people who were nice to others were more likely to survive. This is as opposed to saying that people try to be nice because we are not like animals and we have a tzelem Elokim.

    #1169713

    Sam2
    Participant

    TCMO: I did not say everything was Apikorsus. There are some things that are. That is not debatable. What falls under that might be.

    Joseph: I am aware of the sources. I’m also aware that it’s fair to read Rashi as saying that 24 hours means vis-a-vis itself–meaning it was a normal day with some form of progression that shifted and can be divided into 24 recognizable parts, like our days. It doesn’t have to mean that they 24 hours averaged to 60 minutes each.

    #1169714

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD, I just reread Sam’s post – I had thought he said the opposite.

    In any case, the fact that Sam wrote it doesn’t necessarily make it true, plus, there may be other opinions. Also, even if R’Elyashiv said that, I wonder if he could have been referring to the world from the time of Adam’s creation (i.e. after the 6 days of creation). Maybe we only start counting the 5776 years from that point, and that is what R’Elyashiv was referring to.

    #1169715

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I also heard that Rav Elyshiv said the world was 6000 years old without seeing Sam2’s comments. It was not new information

    #1169716

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Elyashiv paskened that if a goy underwent a geirus while believing the world is older than 6,000 years, the conversion is invalid and he remains a goy.

    #1169717

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – why? thers sooo many other things than just that?

    #1169718

    Joseph
    Participant

    Because that belief is apikorus.

    #1169719

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Rav Elyashiv paskened that if a goy underwent a geirus while believing the world is older than 6,000 years, the conversion is invalid and he remains a goy.

    Define “the world”.

    #1169720

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Because that belief is apikorus.

    And yet, here, you state that, according to R. Eliyashiv, I’m *not* an apikorus becuase I accept the scientific evidence regarding the age of the earth.

    ???? ??????? vs. Orthoprax

    Make up your mind.

    The Wolf

    #1169721

    Joseph
    Participant

    I responded to you in that thread, Wolf.

    #1169722

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – arent you allowed to believe in the big bang?

    #1169723

    Sam2
    Participant

    LU: No. R’ Elyashiv Davka referred to the Sheishes Yemei Bereishis being 24-hour days.

    #1169724

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, it depends on what one means by “the world”. There is a midrash that says that Hashem created and destroyed worlds before this. The Torah also says that Adam’s body was created and only later did he receive a “living soul” (according to Onkelos the power of speech.In fact, according to archaeological evidence writing has only been in existence for a little over 5,000 years so perhaps 5,776 is from the time people were raised above the animals. this si the world as we know it.

    As for Rav Eliashiv, with all due respect there are other poskim. Perhaps the “halacha” (I find it difficult to write that about a non-legal matter) is not like him.

    #1169725

    Person1
    Member

    Any source for rav elyashiv saying that?

    And even if he did say that it doesn’t mean there’s a consensus.

    #1169726

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – I just read that other thread, and it does seem like there may be a contradiction here. I assume that the reason you are saying there is not a contradiction is that R’ Elyashiv Zatsal seemingly differentiated between the person and the belief. In other words, the idea is kefira, but the person who has it is not, so t/f if someone who wants to convert has this belief, he holds a belief that is kefira (even though he is not an apikorus), and t/f he is not allowed to convert.

    Is that what you meant when you said that there is no contradiction?

    That makes a certain amount of sense, but the problem I have with that is that I am not sure from R’ Aharon Feldman’s letter that that is what R’ Elyashiv meant. Maybe he is just saying that we are not allowed to state & teach that view, not that it is kefira. And that wouldn’t necessarily mean that a potential convert can’t be converted if he holds that way. Do we have proof that R’Elyashiv did in fact state that that view is kefira and that someone who has that view is not allowed to convert?

    I am having a hard time understanding how a belief can be kefira but the person who has it is not an apikorus. That is why I wonder if that is really what he said.

    #1169727

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    perhaps 5,776 is from the time people were raised above the animals. this si the world as we know it.

    That description doesn’t fit what it says in Bereishis.

    there are other poskim. Perhaps the “halacha” (I find it difficult to write that about a non-legal matter) is not like him.

    Perhaps the halachah is like him, even if you don’t like it. (I am speaking theoretically; I don’t know whst he holds.)

    How is determining who is accepted for geirus not a legal matter? This is a fallacy of some on the left, dismissing hashkafos as not halachic, despite the fact that there are clear halachic ramifications. Don’t fall into it.

    #1169728

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I found these two statements on Natan Slifkin’s website:

    According to this, it was Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita and not R’ Elyashiv Zatsal who MIGHT have made the statement about geirim. We do not even know for sure that R’Chaim said that. Also, the way it is phrased, it is not referring to someone who already converted and we are not saying his geirus is possul; rather it is saying that we should not convert him to begin with (but it might be possible that his geirus is accepted after the fact).

    In terms of the other statement, he only says that R’ Elyashiv is reported as saying it.

    These statements were made in an article in which Natan Slifkin was trying to show that the Gedolim do not believe the world is older than 6 thousand years, and yet, he didn’t have proof that R’ Elyashiv Zatsal & R’ Chaim Ybdl”c actually made those statements.

    I’m not saying that they definitely didn’t; I am just saying that no one has brought proof yet that they did. And if Natan Slifkin who had an agenda to show that the Gedolim are against the belief that the world is more than 6 thousands years old couldn’t bring any proof that they actually said that, it makes me wonder if they in fact did. If anyone has any proofs/sources on that matter, please provide. Thanks!

    #1169729

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Rereading the letter from R’ Aharon Feldman, it sounds pretty clear that R’ Elyashiv did not consider this belief (that the world is over 6 thousand years old) to be kefira but rather that he held that it should not be taught.

    Again, if anyone has any proofs/sources to the contrary, I’d be happy to see them.

    #1169730

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam2 said: If you assume that the 6 days of creation were 6 24-hour periods, there just isn’t enough time for any evolution.

    Not that I believe there’s reason to think evolution happened at all, but Hashem could have sped up the process of change so that many years worth of species evolving and the world’s aging occurred in six days.

    It has the same effect as saying that the six days took longer, without actually saying that they did.

    #1169731

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, Rav Eisenstein shlita was Rav Eliashev’s personal gabbai. And Rav Eliashev’s statement regarding the invalidity of geirus is widely known and was extensively reported upon when he made it.

    #1169732

    Sparkly
    Member

    DaasYochid – your NOT allowed to believe in evolution.

    #1169733

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, thanks. But I still would want some kind of proof. It may have been extensively reported, but it’s a chiddush to me. I’m not saying it’s not true, just that I would want some kind of proof.

    I don’t consider Natan Slifkin to be a source especially since he is very nogeah b’davar.

    And according to R’ Aharon Feldman’s letter that you brought, R’ Elyashiv did not say that.

    #1169734

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sparkly, the concept is something muttar to believe in, but using it to replace what it says in the Torah is assur.

    #1169735

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, here is the complete context of the effect of what Rav Nachum Eisenstein shlita publicly stated at the podium in front of a large audience of gedolei haTorah and rabbonim on November 6, 2007:

    Also, it was a rabbi speaking to the same audience the previous day prior to Rav Eisenstein that cited Rav Chaim Kanievsky that you mentioned above, it was not simply a claim from Natan Slifkin. Specifically, he said from the podium that Rav Chaim Kanievsky was asked if it is mutar to convert a person who is mikabel ol malchus shamayim but is unwilling to believe that the world is only 5768 years old. (This was almost 10 years ago.) Rav Chaim answered that it is in fact assur to convert such a person.

    Rav Eisenstein is readily available to confirm this.

    #1169736

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I do not believe that the problem is belief in the specific age of the Universe.

    To be perfectly honest. I don’t care what it is. The age of the world is completely irrelevant to me.

    I do believe the Torah was given at Har Sinai.

    I do believe that the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is contained in the Torah.

    I do know there are certain “secrets” of Torah that can be fully grasped and understood by only a select few in each generation.

    Rav Elyashiv’s grandfather the Leshem was one such person and he wrote about the age of the world.

    I am not on the level to fully comprehend what he wrote.

    However I believe fully that any theory or thought regarding the age of the universe must fully comply with the Torah and if it is conflict it must disregarded as false.

    Period.

    Science must whole up to the test of Torah.

    The Torah must not whole up to the test of science chalilah.

    However I do think that the crux of the issue is where we get our information and what we base it on.

    A careful reading of the second of the famous Ninteen Letters shows one thing RSRH made clear that to understand the Torah we must study the Torah from within the Torah not from with out.

    For ex.

    Evolutionists point to the similarity between various skeletal structures as “proof” towards the need to identify one single common ancestor. if not there is no good explanation.

    However if we look within the Torah we understand that man is a composite of a guf and a neshomah and what distinguishes us is not our bodies but our neshomah.

    So if HKBH saw fit why could he not have acted as any architect and use one basic “sketch” for all his living creations with slight deviations based upon each ones respective purpose in this world with man being distinguished not by a completely different skeletal structure but a completely different soul?

    It’s a simple solution to one of the primary riddles that evolutionary scientists claim as a “proof” to their theories.

    In fact it’s not a solution or a form of “apologetics” it’s a logical conclusion that one would make by and basic study of machshovah.

    But it’s one that “they” will not entertain at any cost.

    Why?

    Because the core. root, and the driving force between all their theories is to prove that at the very essence man and animal are the same with only “evolutionary genetics to thank and as such man and animal’s are equal’s in theory.

    #1169737

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, thanks. What is your source? And if this correct, why does Rav Aharon Feldman’s letter say something completely different?

    #1169738

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People here are mixing up Evolution, the Big Bang theory and the age of the earth.

    While they are related, they are not the same. How old the earth is is a seperate question to how species arrived in the way they did on earth

    #1169739

    Avi K
    Participant

    I half agree with Ben Levi. What is important is not the actual age of world but why Chazal took the trouble to calculate it. For dating legal documents we could have stuck with the minyan hashetarot – which the Yemenites still use.

    #1169740

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I just found this quote from Rav Hershel Schachter on the Kol Mevaser website:

    #1169741

    Joseph
    Participant

    I would accept the accuracy of RNE over RHS. 1) RNE has *not* retracted. A phone call to him can easily verify this. 2) It isn’t RNE’s position to retract, it is Rav Eliashev’s position. And he, too, never wavered in this position.

    #1169742

    Sparkly
    Member

    in general college is good. if someone doesnt go to college its like not going to high school.

    #1169743

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, the difference between the two is that I have a source for RHS and not for RNE. It is true that RNE can’t retract Rav Elyashiv’s position, but since in this case he was the source, so he CAN retract his statement (which would either mean that he is saying that he was mistaken regarding Rav Elyashiv’s position or that Rav Elyashiv retracted.) “Hapeh sheassar who hapeh she matir.” If the original statement came from RNE, he can retract his own statement.

    #1169744

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, if you have a source, I would be happy to see it. I’m not denying that he said it; I am just saying that I haven’t seen a source. Until I see a source, it is assur for me to believe it. Telling me to call him is not very helpful.

    #1169745

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, additionally my issue is that in this thread you stated that the belief that the world is more than 6,000 years old is kefira, but in the other thread, according to the quote from Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Elyashiv specifically stated that it is not kefira, but it should not be taught.

    #1169746

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: That is a fascinating way to look at it.

    Ben Levi: Honestly, for the vast majority who believe in evolution, it’s about figuring out what is more likely to be true. It’s not about making humans and animals the same.

    #1797492

    Joseph
    Participant

    Modi’in Illit Speaks Out Against Learning Secular Subjects

    HaRav Meir Kessler Of Modi’in Illit Speaks Out Against Learning “Secular Subjects”

    #1797633

    MDG
    Participant

    i find it interesting that many of those who rail against secular subjects as being not kosher will take money from a “treif” source – those that earn because of their education
    .
    _____________________

    From the above article”
    “The goal is to prepare them to get out into the workplace and to become a member of the general society. We must strengthen the children’s desire to learn Torah.”

    As if there is a complete contradiction.

    #1797638

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, I don’t agree with him. Not everybody is suitable for sitting and learning. Learning chemistry we see the greatness of our Creator having a miniature solar system in every atom. String theory shows that Hashem put his energy into everything. Math is required for the the gemora.

    #1797644

    rational
    Participant

    Rav Kessler’s speech made quite a splash here, I read the original Hebrew transcript. One of the subjects he opposes studying is English, so the English translation from the original Hebrew here is quite ironic.

    Of course, many agree with him and many do not. Of those that do not, the most common comment wondered whether the Rav was going to financially support all the families he has condemned to poverty as a result of them not studying English and arithmetic, not to mention electronics, car mechanics, etc…

    #1797669

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In Israel quite a number of yeshivas are opposed to english (Being learned or even spoken) unless you are an anglo, they think it leads to OTD

    #1797670

    jdb
    Participant

    Joseph, I’m not here to out you. But if you came out of that frum college with tremendous kishronos and shaychus to your rebbe, was it really so bad? Didn’t we sit together and sing Friday nights on the fourth floor after you made your later Kiddush and hamotsi in a bag of rolls? Didn’t Rav B give you your space to be mishamesh the rebbe when he was in town? I know college isn’t your hashkafa today, but let’s be honest and the damage and growth we experienced in this era of our lives.

    I’m not saying college is for everyone. But for many people, it is the reality of making a parnassah. And as a kehillah, a secular education in a frum context is attainable and neccesary to to our long term viability.

    Follow your rabbanim. But please don’t put down others for following theirs.

    #1797710

    Joseph
    Participant

    jdb: You’re confusing me with someone else. I’m not familiar with a fourth floor or later Kiddush with a bag of rolls or which Rebbe I was mishamesh when he was in town. Can you give the name of the Rav whose initial you mentioned?

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