Coming to shul without a jacket for davening Shachris

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  • #1219668

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    But what if jackets are just fading out of fashion? If I’d lived in a time and place where togas are a standard of formal wear, I’d wear a toga, but I wouldn’t wear a toga now because they used to be considered nice.

    #1219669

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq – Do you wear a jacket to shul for Mincha/Maariv?

    #1219670

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    What about wearing a button down collared shirt with a colored cloth napkin in the pocket instead of the jacket?

    Even people who wear jackets to work may not go to the extent of tucking in a colored cloth napkin.

    Make the napkin thing the fancy piece that shows you’re speaking to the King

    #1219671

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “ubiq – Do you wear a jacket to shul for Mincha/Maariv?”

    Yep. But that isnt what the op discussed

    #1219672

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    When you daven Maariv, is it already considered the next day?

    Wouldn’t that be a better time to face the King in a jacket? It’s the start of the new day.

    #1219673

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq, you said if you were meeting the RBS”O for a once-in-a-lifetime one-on-one meeting He called you to for a back-and-forth conversation, you wouldn’t wear a jacket to the meeting.

    #1219674

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    the thread was discussing shacharis and most of the discussion further limited it to Shacharis during the week ie with tefilin.

    In that situation I do not think wearing half a jacket is more bekavadik than no jacket. Neither in front of a President/King (like you started) nor in front of the Ribono shel Olam lehavdil.

    #1219675

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq, do you think it would be more bekovodik for Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman and all Roshei Yeshivos to not wear a jacket during weekday Shachris?

    #1219676

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    I am fairly certain none of them wear jackets.

    You are making a circular argument.

    They wear their garb because that is the accepted style in their circles. Not because it is inherently bekavadik.

    The best example is a hat. When agudah “askanim” Meet political figures they usually do not bring their hats along (though rabbonim might). When meeting a president I wouldn’t wear a hat nor half a jacket. And I would wear a tie.

    When davening we use a different benchmark. The garb for davening is completely different than meeting a president in spite of what you say in your op.

    The accepted style among beneI yeshiva during shacharis is hat (unless married) half a jacket and no suit or tie.

    This is very different than in the oval office.

    Thus Your initial argument that all should dress this way since that’s how would dressay when meeting a president makes absolutely no sense.

    #1219677

    speakerAV
    Participant

    and i think all those men who only wear one sleeve because of the tefillin look ludicrous. would you stand in front of the king only wearing one sleeve. IMHO, not wearing a jacket looks more menchlich for shacharis.

    #1219678

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    If you’re really standing before the King wouldn’t you bring Him snacks or a gift? Maybe flowers?

    #1219679

    lesschumras
    Participant

    The president/King argument is somewhat specious. Growing up in the 50’s, that was the justification for wearing a hat. That all changed when John F Kennedy went hatless at his 1961 inauguration and, overnight, hats went out of style. The same is happening with jackets, albeit a lot slower.

    #1219680

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “John F Kennedy went hatless at his 1961 inauguration”

    While the giSt of your post is true,

    Kennedy did in fact wear a hat at his inauguration. There are plenty of pictures available

    #1219681

    lesschumras
    Participant

    He didn’t wear one when he was sworn in at the Capitol and that’s the photograph/television image that people saw and remembered seeing

    #1219682

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” He didn’t wear one when he was sworn in at the Capitol “

    Neither did Eisenhower

    #1219683

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” He didn’t wear one when he was sworn in at the Capitol “

    Neither did Eisenhower

    #1219684

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I know, but JFK and wife were viewed as fashion trendsetters

    #1219685

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The president/King argument is somewhat specious. Growing up in the 50’s, that was the justification for wearing a hat. That all changed when John F Kennedy went hatless at his 1961 inauguration and, overnight, hats went out of style. The same is happening with jackets, albeit a lot slower.

    If you take it literally it might be. If you understand that a jacket and hat are more respectful/respectable and the reason it has gone out of style is not because the style of respectable clothing has changed, but rather because it has become the norm to dress less respectably, you will realize that it is proper wear a hat and especially a jacket for davening.

    #1219686

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The argument that some have made that it looks ridiculous to wear a jacket with tefillin is in fact a ridiculous argument.

    You wouldn’t wear tefillin in front of the president; that would look ridiculous. That doesn’t stop us from wearing it in front of Hashem; in that context it is beautiful and elegant.

    The normal way to wear a jacket when wearing tefillin is to have one arm out; there is nothing ridiculous about it.

    #1219687

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY – +1 for both of your last posts. Those are very good points, especially the second to last one. I wasn’t sure how to respond once when someone used the JFK argument on me (never having thought about the topic before). Now I’ll know if it comes up again.

    #1219688

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “because it has become the norm to dress less respectably, you will realize that it is proper wear a hat and especially a jacket for davening.”

    While your point might be half true. There are times where people do dress respectably, such as state dinner or something like that where black ties tuxedos are worn. In those instances hats are not worn though they may have been once upon a time.

    “The normal way to wear a jacket when wearing tefillin is to have one arm out; there is nothing ridiculous about it.”

    that is pretty much what I have been trying to say. when davening our garb is quite different than when in front of a president. We have our own standard of dress for davening that we consider bekavadik including a hat, tefillin and halaf a jacket without a tie. None of these are how we would appear in front of a President. I didnt mean this as an arguemnt NOT to wear ajacket just that the argument to wear a jacket becasue thats what would be worn in front of a president ” is in fact a ridiculous argument.”

    #1219689

    The little I know
    Participant

    I do not mean to be offensive, but I am frankly finding the discussion here just a smidgen above useless. Here’s why.

    Our experience of tefiloh has deteriorated greatly. We are invited to stand before the ??? ????? on special invitation three times daily. Many of us actually comply with the mandate. But it’s not a mandate! It is a privileged invitation. A goy can’t do it. He cannot approach the ??? ????? at all, ever. We walk into shul, and characteristically use our brains to attend to a multitude of matters that have no role in the davening itself. We might be looking for some precious space to place our tallis bag while we daven. We pay attention to whoever else might be there. Who davens for the amud. Let’s not exclude the socializing that occurs almost routinely. Are we engaged in our hearts with the tefiloh? Are we feeling the emotion in every word or every part of davening? Or are we just going through the rote behavior of reciting the words on the page of the siddur?

    If someone is davening with every ounce of his being, his attire is secondary. But being dressed to the hilt, in the most respectful way will not ever replace the emotional connection with HKB”H through a heartfelt tefiloh.

    Are we conscious of the relationship we have to HKB”H who is ????? ??????? He wants us to talk to him, out of the love of a parent to us, ???? ??? ??’ ??????. He wants this communication to be direct, not a voice mail message. Hashem wants to shower us with his infinite ??? of all that is good. He wants us to recognize it comes from Him, so we must ask for it. But if we simply mumble through the text as a chore that we need to bypass to continue on with our day, our hearts are not engaged. The smallest baby cries to its parent with more emotion than we typically do in our tefilos.

    This sounds accusatory, and I do not mean it that way. But we desperately need to examine ourselves for the sincerity we speak about. Speeches might be informative, and there are many really good books and articles that shed great light. But we need to implement this when we daven. At that point, the discussion about jackets, etc. becomes moot. If I am truly bent on making my tefiloh experience meaningful, I will pay attention to how I dress, as well. But if it is a chore that is a necessary nuisance, I will seek to make it as convenient as possible (or the least possible inconvenient). I would hope a privilege like davening would get better treatment than that.

    #1219690

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    In summary: you should wear a hat and jacket for davening. Period. If you don’t, it’s still halachically permissible, but you should.

    We all know there’s going to be people out there making stupid arguments contrary to what all the rabbonim say, and trying to pasken based on their feelings. This thread is not bringing up anything new.

    Some shuls do have a hat bin. Jackets are a little less practical to do that with for obvious sizing reasons.

    DY, just curious (not arguing, honestly just curious), if you could fit your arm into the jacket sleeve with tefillin, would you still not leave one arm out?

    #1219691

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Lol NC

    “In summary: you should wear a hat and jacket for davening.”

    This discussion isnt about that at all. But I accept your summary

    So tomorrow should I wear my hat on top of my tallis or under it? Or instead of Atifa with the tallis?

    #1219692

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just curious when Chassidic Rebbes who do not wear Jackets, but wear Beckeshes, What do they wear to Davening?

    What does the Toldos Aharon who wears a White Beckesher wear to Shachris?

    #1219693

    Avi K
    Participant

    Neville, I dispute your summary as well as your contention that “all the rabbis” said so.

    #1219694

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, just curious (not arguing, honestly just curious), if you could fit your arm into the jacket sleeve with tefillin, would you still not leave one arm out?

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coming-to-shul-without-a-jacket-for-davening-shachris#post-647512

    #1219695

    kj chusid
    Participant

    While there are the various haluches and opinions regarding how to dress during Davening, one thing is for sure, better be a ehrliche yid who goes to shul with ur work clothing etc, then be someone who goes with the whole levish just for the show of it

    #1219696

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I’m not debating the need for a hat and jacket. Just pointing out that the president justification a. rgument is not a valid one. However what no one has pointed out is that the jacket should be clean and pressed. We’ve all seen boys/teens come to shul with jackets over creased shirts and with wrinkled pants that need to be cleaned. Sort of defeats the reason for the hat and jacket

    #1219698

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    LC: You have an excellent point!

    #1219699

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF- when I saw that you commented on this thread, I was quite surprised, and it got me very curious: Do frogs wear hats and jackets? What about ties? I’m trying to picture a frog with a hat, jacket and tie, and it looks very funny!

    #1219700

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    What about one of those suit-looking printed t-shirts with a painted blazer on them?

    Just realized that t-shirts look like Ts. That is where they got their name

    #1219701

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Kaf Hachaim says explicitly to wear a “beged elyon” i.e. a jacket.

    Interestingly, he also says when wearing tefillin to have both arms inside the sleeves.

    #1219702

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    What do most men do? (never having been on that side of the Mechitza).

    #1219703

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    DY: So the tefillin goes over the jacket cover? Like if a guy is wearing a white shirt under a black jacket, the tefillin is wrapped around the outside of the jacket?

    So confused. I thought that tefillin goes on a bare arm. Like a blood pressure monitor.

    #1219705

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LU: It depends on “where” you are. EY, US, or some other country. Even here in NYC you will see that almost every minyan is different. Most “yeshivishah” minyanim will have men wearing jackets; other types of minyanim will have men wearing jackets, windbreakers, or no jackets at all. The president of my shul generally is the shliach tzibbur and he hardly ever wears a jacket. In addition, many sephardim don’t wear jackets. I don’t often agree with “kj” but he is correct when he says ” better be a ehrliche yid who goes to shul with ur work clothing”.

    I personally wear a jacket although my father A”H generally did not.

    #1219706

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    lightbrite,

    DY: So the tefillin goes over the jacket cover? Like if a guy is wearing a white shirt under a black jacket, the tefillin is wrapped around the outside of the jacket?

    So confused. I thought that tefillin goes on a bare arm. Like a blood pressure monitor.

    The tefillin is placed directly on the bare arm, and then the sleeve(s) are pulled over the tefillin, covering them from view. The tefillin shel yad (I belive) are actually supposed to be covered from view, and they come with a black cover that slips over the bayis to fulfill this for those who don’t cover the arm with a sleeve.

    The problem I had with my jacket personally when I tried putting my arm in the sleeve is that the tefillin shifted on my arm due to the effort of sticking the arm into the jacket sleeve. When I removed the jacket after davening, I saw that the knot and bayis were not touching (they are supposed to). DaasYochid was bentched with a third arm that he uses to hold the tefillin in place while he slips his jacket on and off.

    #1219707

    Meno
    Participant

    I once saw a guy who had a special jacket for davening with the sleeves removed. This guy had really big arms.

    #1219708

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Iacisrmma and Avrum: Thanks so much for your answers and explanations.

    What I mainly wanted to know was: Do most “Yeshivish” men (the types who are very makpid on levush in general – always wear a hat and jacket, etc.) usually keep their jackets over their Tefillin? According to what Avrum wrote, it sounds like it’s almost impossible to do so halachically, and yet Daas Yochid quoted the Kaf HaChaim that one is supposed to do so.

    So I was wondering what most “Yeshivish” men do? I guess I mean Lakewood types and Chareidim in EY and Yeshiva Bochurim in both countries.

    #1219709

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Lilmod Ulelamaid,

    According to what Avrum wrote, it sounds like it’s almost impossible to do so halachically

    I haven’t figured out a way… but a way must exist. DaasYochid knows his way, though I couldn’t figure out from his description how to make it work for me. Also, some people, e.g., Chabad, Sefardim, wrap their tefillin differently than I do (I wrap towards my body when the strap is over the arm), which may make it easier to keep the knot and box together while shoving the arm into the sleeve.

    #1219710

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avrum – what do you see most people in your shul doing? What did most of the other guys do when you were in Yeshiva?

    #1219711

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “It’s very wrong. One wouldn’t come to a formal invitation to visit the Oval Office or Buckingham Palace without a jacket.”

    correct, proper Oval Office decorum calls for a coffee stained untucked shirt, scuffed shoes, a hat that has sees way better days, perched at the back of the head with the brim up and a jacket worn hanging over the shoulders.

    #1219712

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Lilmod Ulelamaid,

    Avrum – what do you see most people in your shul doing? What did most of the other guys do when you were in Yeshiva?

    The majority of jacket-wearers in my shul leave the arm out of the sleeve. I never went to Yeshiva.

    #1219713

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Google – “The Tefillin Jacket”

    #1219714

    Meno
    Participant

    Google – “The Tefillin Jacket”

    I once tried pulling my shirt sleeve over my tefillin like that and I ripped my shirt. But I guess you can still leave your shirt sleeve up

    #1219715

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    apushatayid,

    Google – “The Tefillin Jacket”

    LOL, I can’t tell if that’s a joke or not, but it’s definitely a solution. Does anyone sell these?

    #1219716

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LU: as Avram in MD wrote, it depends on the person. There is no consensus on whether the arm with the tefillin is put in the jacket sleeve or not. It all depends on the person’s comfort. If my jacket sleeve is big enough, I will put my hand into the jacket sleeve. If not, I leave it out.

    The covering of the arm tefillin is based on the words UKKSHARTEM LOS AL YADCHAH (tied as a sign on your hand) as a reminder to the wearer not to the observer.

    #1219717

    Joseph
    Participant

    You can put the flap of the top of your shirt sleeve over your tefilin shel yad.

    #1219718

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Looser shirt?

    #1219719

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Meno, I think that’s called a “vest.”

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