Cousins Marrying

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  • #930426

    there is a viznitz chasuna tomorrow where the chosson and kalla, are … hold your breath…. first second and third couisns!!!

    #930427

    I think it’s great when cousins get married. It is marbeh simcha when more than one person in the same family gets married! However, they should be careful to marry different people.

    #930428

    goldersgreener
    Participant

    Good point, I’ll keep it in mind.

    #930429

    oomis
    Participant

    It is certainly not ossur d’Oraisah for even first cousins to marry. It might not be a good idea when there is a hereditary disorder in the family that could potentially be passed on to the children, when family members marry each other. If the gene pool has an inyan, it is safer not to do this. Otherwise – why not? I would go to Dor Yesharim and have both tested, as with any shidduch precaution.

    #930430

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Dor Yesharim does wonderful work, but they test a limited number of disorders. I’m pretty sure that there are some genetic disorders that cannot be tested — no one knows what genes cause them. My suspicion is that occasional cousin weddings aren’t very dangerous, but if there’s a pattern over several generations, it’s another story. The hemophilia of the royal families of Europe demonstrates this.

    #930431

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    As the genetics informed us, it is pretty common for all Ashkanazi descendants to be related.

    Yes, there are Rosh Yeshivas and Rabbonim that married their cousins, but 1) ain somchin al haness, and 2) their kids might be fine because the gene is recessive, but they could ruin the lives of great great great great grandchildren. I wonder if you ask them if in 10 generations one of your grandkids will die young because of a genetic disease by marrying their cousin, what they would answer. Would they still marry their cousins?

    #930432

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Anonymous: I’m very sorry to hear your story. However, readers should be aware that no amount of genetic testing will find every genetic disorder, since every one needs to be tested for separately, and it is implausible to test for every one.

    Moreover, Dor yeshorim is much better than other labs, since they are attuned to the specific mutations that ashkenazi jews have. Anecdotaly, my sister in law knows someone who was tested by a non-dor yeshorim lab and then had children with tay sachs even though they were tested for it.

    #930433

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Did you really regret marrying your wife?

    #930434

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Did you really regret marrying your wife?

    He surely didn’t mean that; there difference between an infatuated couple that is dating or engaged and a couple married for years.

    Even those in favor of genetic testing to prevent incompatible marriages don’t advocate married couples getting divorced based on testing.

    #930435

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Modern genetic science certainly doesn’t recommend marrying a karov.

    We need to diversify our gene pool, due to the high percentage of problems we see in the Ashkenazic community (not just Tay Sachs, but the percentage of developmental disabilities seems to be higher on a per capita basis in the frum community than in society as a whole, although I have no data to quantify this).

    #930436

    Ðash®
    Participant

    My suspicion is that occasional cousin weddings aren’t very dangerous, but if there’s a pattern over several generations, it’s another story. The hemophilia of the royal families of Europe demonstrates this.

    The type of hemophilia that occured in decendents of Queen Victoria is a recessive X-linked genetic disorder and has nothing to do with cousins marrying.

    #930437

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba: “that no amount of genetic testing will find every genetic disorder, since every one needs to be tested for separately, and it is implausible to test for every one.”

    True and no one has to go nuts. But if you marry your cousin, you should go through aggressive testing. If not, do not blame hashem for any misfortunes that may occur.

    Dor Yeshorim tests the common genetic mutations. Labs test everything.

    Dash: Two recessive genes cause a 25% chance in a family of 4 to have the disease.

    #930438

    The little I know
    Participant

    I am not understanding the polarized comments here. There is a major amount of hashgocho involved in the producing of children and their genetic coding. Parents do not have the control over that. With what science does know, we need to be cautious, and relatives marrying can possibly involve increased risk of combining of recessive genes. Dor Yeshurim does a superb and excellent job in testing for everything known, and it has the access to test for additional issues if there is reason to suspect, as with relatives. In fact, I have examined the situation quite carefully, and it seems that Dor Yeshurim has a better track record than the “average” lab.

    For families that have no identified cases of illness for the past few generations, it stands to reason that there is a statistically lower risk. Regardless, if you ask R’ Eckstein of Dor Yeshurim, he will recommend against relatives marrying.

    In my family, intra-family marriages have happened, and there have been no problems B”H. Everyne who considered such a shidduch did meticulous homework before proceeding. HKB”H should continue to protect all of Klal Yisroel.

    #930439

    Ðash®
    Participant

    Dash: Two recessive genes cause a 25% chance in a family of 4 to have the disease.

    But there is no such thing as a male carrier of an X-linked genetic disorder. (I’m discussing Hemophilia B)

    #930440

    computer777
    Member

    But there is no such thing as a male carrier of an X-linked genetic disorder. (I’m discussing Hemophilia B)

    I don’t believe that is correct. A male who has an x-linked genetic disorder will #1 have the disorder (as opposed to just being a carrier) and #2 pass the gene on to ALL of his daughters (making them carriers) and none of his sons.

    If the mother also carries an x-linked genetic disorder, then there is 50% change for children (male or female) to actually have the disorder.

    If only the father has the disorder, all his daughters will be carriers of the disorder.

    #930441

    computer777
    Member

    If the mother also carries an x-linked genetic disorder, then there is 50% change for children (male or female) to actually have the disorder.

    I meant if the mother has the same x-linked defective gene as the father, then there is 50% for either male or female to have the disorder.

    If only the mother is a carrier, then 50% chance for the female child to be a carrier, and a 50% chance for a male child to actually have the disorder.

    #930442

    oomis
    Participant

    I would also point out that there are recessive genes for WONDERFUL traits, as well as for illness. People need to just be very careful and choose wisely. Also, there are hereditary conditions such as Celiac Disease, that may for whatever reason not have been evident in a family prior to a member being diagnosed with it. That, too, is H”P.

    #930443

    Ðash®
    Participant

    A male who has an x-linked genetic disorder will #1 have the disorder (as opposed to just being a carrier) and #2 pass the gene on to ALL of his daughters (making them carriers) and none of his sons.

    In theory that is true but I am discussing a disease that at the time those having the disease typicaly did not live long enough to pass the gene on.

    #930444

    Ash
    Participant

    I am related to my wife by marriage

    #930445

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most Ashkenazic Jews are cousins, Probably no more than 4th or 5th Cousins and I dont mean in the Philisophical sense, I mean in the genetic sense.

    Thats the reason things like Taysachs are a problem

    #930446

    benignuman
    Participant

    I am not a geneticist but I suspect that there is some confusion in this thread between the causing of genetic disorders and the propagation of genetic disorders.

    Because Jews in the Diaspora were always isolated minorities who married among themselves genetic diseases were propagated down through the generations and not diluted through marriage outside the minority. That doesn’t mean that the marrying of cousins caused the disease, it means it just made it easier to stay around.

    #930447

    tzup
    Member

    It’s funny I also thought it was unheard of. But then my good friend did it.

    #930448

    benignuman: Your making it seem like inter-faith marriage is ok. I think if we are ashkenaz, we should just marry a sefardi person, and then all our problems will be solved…

    #930449

    benignuman
    Participant

    Snowbunny,

    Chas v’shalom, I did not mean that at all. I was just trying to point that marrying cousins might not cause genetic issues the way everyone is assuming.

    But yes it is probably safest, percentage-wise, to marry a sefardi (or a Ger).

    Reb Doniel,

    I have noticed the high occurrences of developmental disabilities among frum Jews as well. However I think it is more likely an illusion of an much higher birthrate (making it more likely for a family to have a child with special needs) and less abortion.

    #930450

    My neighbor married her cousin and had kids with 11 toes and had to move to Alabama were that kind of thing is tolerated.

    #930451

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Benignuman, it’s also possible that a frum family is less likely to institutionalize.

    #930453

    Artiste
    Participant

    I heard that the Bobover Rav, Reb Shlome assered Bobover chassisdim from marrying their first cousins.

    Is there any truth in this?

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