January 16, 2013 12:10 am at 12:10 am #607815
The Gemara uses the term oved kochavim many times and I’m wondering if it refers to all goyim or specifically those who worship some form of astrology or something like that. Does anyone have any makor for the exact definition of the term?January 16, 2013 12:17 am at 12:17 am #920612em0616Member
I guess it refers to people that actually worship idols. It’s questionable if there is real idol worship today, as it was thousands of years ago. Do people still bow down and pray to idols made out of stone, believing that they have divine powers?January 16, 2013 12:22 am at 12:22 am #920613
What I’m asking is this, if the gemara says that there is a specific rule applying to “ovdei kochavim”, does this apply to all non-Jews or only to a literal definition of ovadah zorah?January 16, 2013 12:32 am at 12:32 am #9206145fivetownsParticipant
Buddhists, Christians and Hindus. Not Moslems.January 16, 2013 1:01 am at 1:01 am #920615
According to the Rabbanut, no practitioners of any legitimate religionJanuary 16, 2013 3:00 am at 3:00 am #920616Avi KParticipant
Hinduism is definitely avoda zara. There is a well-known machloket between Rambam and Rabbenu Tam if Natzrut is a”z for non-Jews (although all agree that it is for us) as they associate another being with Hashem (shituf). Almost all (the Ran disagrees) hold that Islam is not.January 16, 2013 3:19 am at 3:19 am #920617
Rebdoniel, what’s the mekor? Who do you mean by rabanut?January 16, 2013 5:05 am at 5:05 am #920618
Rabbi David Rosen organized a meeting between the Chief Rabbi of Israel (R’ Metzger) and Hindu leaders in 2008 which resulted in a joint declaration which acknowledges that Hinduism is a monotheistic religion, similar to Christianity.
Tosafot and Rema held that Christianity was not avoda zara for goyim.
Meiri’s shita on monotheistic religions is well-known.
I don’t see how one can argue that the God-fearing gentile who prays and raises his kids well and to pray and study scripture can be seen as one of the akum of old.
Meiri, R’ Dovid Zvi Hoffman, and many others hold this way.January 16, 2013 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #920620☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Many references to avodas kochavim in the gemara and other seforim are not literal, and were actually changed from the term nochri (or similar) to avoid offending people. The term “min” was also often changed. Sometimes the sensor was an a”h; it’s humorous to find, in hilchos taaruvos, the phrase “akum b’akumo”.January 16, 2013 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #920621HaLeiViParticipant
It depends on the context. Very often it is shorthand for any non-Jew. Many Rishonim were lenient on Yayin Nesech when he wasn’t litteraly an Oved Kochavim.
The famous rubber stamp on old Sefarim says that, “wherever it says Goy, Akum, and Kuti, it doesn’t mean those today whom we live amongst. It means the ancient idol-worshippers. Today, on the contrary, they are G-d fearing.” This rubber-stamp can be found on Kuntreisim dealing explicitly with the present day, as well.January 16, 2013 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #920622ToiParticipant
the mivakrim changed the word goy to oived kochavim.January 16, 2013 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #920623miritchkaMember
Is Hinduism the religion that prays to the Buddha statue? Cuz an acquaintance of mine has a Buddha in his home as a decoration. I’ve also seen people dress up as buddah on purim.January 16, 2013 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #920624
You seriously should take a world religions course.
Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.
Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, and they do not worship the statue. They venerate the one the statue symbolizes.January 16, 2013 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #920625ToiParticipant
miri- thats totally ossur. it has the status of an idol.January 17, 2013 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #920626benignumanParticipant
There are different types of Buddhism. Zen Buddhism (i.e. the American form) is “non-theistic” but Tibetian Buddhism is theistic and is avoda zarah. Read “The Jew and the Lotus” the description of a Jewish Delegation that goes to meet the Dalai Lama.
Hinduism is at the early stage of Avoda Zara described by the Rambam in the beginning of sefer Mada. They believe that there is one real G-d who created everything but who is too awesome for mere mortals to relate to. Therefore there are many little gods that interact with people on a day to day level.January 17, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #920627HaLeiViParticipant
Any Avoda Zara is worshiping the spirit that resides in the statue — as the Gemara in Avoda Zara says (in the Sugya of Avoda Zara that broke) — not the piece of wood or stone as your second grade Rebbe simplified it to you.
Never Pasken out of second grade impressions.January 17, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #920628miritchkaMember
rebdoniel: first i need to complete my studies on our religion before i go studying other religions…and being that our religion is so complex, it could take a lifetime.
Toi: Do you have any suggestions on what i can tell this acquaintance? I’m not very comfortable speaking to him in general. You can compare the way i feel about him as a worker would feel toward their boss.January 18, 2013 4:58 am at 4:58 am #920629
The Raabbanut statement (you can google search it) basically says that the Hindus acknowledge one deity, the one true G-d.
This seems to be in line with how they understand the doctrine of Brahman. Perhaps they have a shituf, like the Christians do.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.