Different Tracks of Modern Orthodoxy

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    Dear Avira,

    Why does the percentages matter to you or me? If the Mo is what the coming generations of yeshivaleit are heading toward, why would wo gloat about the present? Maybe MO is closer to hitting rock bottom and turning things around. What is needed here is an ideal that the YV really holds to that we can grasp as a preventative form sliding towards a less observant modernity. I’m not convinced that there is one.


    “the culture, leadership, communal/social norms, are all about Torah and Hashem, with nothing else mixed in”

    This is garbage. You know there is a politics obsession just from reading this site. You know there is a major struggle over how to view sitting in yeshiva and learning. You know that there is all kinds of internet guidelines that are being ignored. You know that there is all kinds of hefkeirus among the youth including married couples. You know that it is a rarity to go to a chasuna and see everyone talking in learning. You know that a top yungerman is not expected to finish the mesechta he is learning this zman. You know the yeshivos are tying themselves in knots trying to address the emunah curriculum problem. You know that nobody sets a standard for what kind of growth justifies sitting in a kollel. You know that davenig on time is getting really out of hand.

    And somehow, the manner of dress and pool use by MO is a lack of observance. But by us, it’s just a gashmiyos problem.

    Complete hypocrisy.


    Dear Avram,

    Your talking about open exclusion. I’m talking about those that live in yeshivish areas, send to yeshivish schools, et cetera and aren’t really frum anymore. They are kept in the community if they keep up appearances. But nobody considers them yeshivish.

    An example.
    Yehudah: Yeshivish people don’t watch TV on shabbos.
    Chaim: XYZ had the game on last shabbos.
    Yehudah: Nobody considers XYZ yeshivish.

    MO doesn’t do this with observance. Which makes more sense to me. Because in every single community, observance is not nearly as uniform as people think it is.


    Nom, the only issue which is not subjective and warped in your oost is that of the fake gitten given to people with pull and money. And it happened once. It’s not institutionalized, and those in the inner circles already believed that gadol to be past his independent prime and under the influence of his far less worthy son.

    But do the yeshivos teach that one may change halacha to accommodate the rich? Do they believe in a yiddishkeit which teaches them that helping the rich supercedes halacha, or is it just one aberration that fell through the cracks?

    The rest of your post is not really intelligible. I don’t know where you got the idea that yeshivos are abandoning bochurim or even what that means, and i also don’t want to know who you consider a gaon and which yungeleit are changing halacha with chumros. It’s just baseless.


    And if you think yeshiva guys spend the whole day ragging on freikeit – spend a day in BMG and see how many of the conversations are about MO.

    I have a friend who’s modern-minded in some ways, but feels very comfortable in Lakewood, because he’s very into learning and that’s what he and his chabura spend their time doing.



    I’m completely frum, I learned in Yeshiva and Kollel for years, I have several daily sedorim and make a siyum every year.

    You’re so insecure and filled with self-loathing that you use what little learning you have as a weapon to hurt other Jews. You clearly don’t belong in a classroom and one of these days your hatred will put an end to your teaching career.


    From my experience in yeshiva, the guys who spend a lot of time ranting about MO/Zionism weren’t the really chashuve bochurim. The chashuve bochurim were quiet and spend most of their time learning.

    It was also the case that the flip outs in the yeshiva world were always more vehement in their tirades against MO than those from yeshivish backgrounds. I agree with GadolHadofi that they are usually insecure and feel the need to show that they fit in by criticizing their where they came from. It always got annoying at a certain point and just became childish.


    First, I’d like to say that numerous points made by Joseph, Aveirah, and others are completely false. They really enjoy making things up, or twisting other things to suit their own purposes.

    I think we really need to make a differentiation between LWMO and the rest of it. LWMO I’ll define as Avi Weiss and his ilk. I agree that they have major issues, and they should not be considered Orthodox. It’s not only my opinion – the RCA said a number of years ago that they left Orthodoxy. So they could call themselves whatever they want, it doesn’t change what they are. Lumping them together with good, frum MO people is a mistake.

    Does MO have some issues? Of course, every sect does. That doesn’t mean it’s all wrong.

    You also can’t compare the Modern Orthodoxy of 50+ years ago to what exists today. Torah observance in the US has grown tremendously, and MO as a whole has grown as well.

    I disagree about the characterization of tefillah in a MO shul being filled with talking and smartphone use. It’s not true. In fact, I will say that the worst shul I’ve ever been to as far as decorum is concerned is a chassidish shul in Brooklyn, with a Rav who is regarding as a big adam gadol, who is widely respected. But after seeing the lack of decorum multiple times, I refuse to daven there anymore.

    In truth, I should point out that I’ve seen people talking on the phone in shul, on Shabbos. I’ve used the phone on Shabbos myself. I even used it on Rosh Hashanah, and I believe once on Pesach, during the seder. I have adult family members who don’t fast on Yom Kippur, and still consider themselves frum. Is this because I’m MO? No, I’m sure you guessed that it was all for medical reasons. You know what else I’ve seen? A family member who learned in kollel, who was a chassid shoteh. His wife went into labor on Shabbos afternoon. He decided, “She likely won’t give birth too quickly, and it’s only a few hours until Shabbos ends. I’ll be maikel and use the earliest zman, and then take her to the hospital!” He even left her alone to go to shul to daven Maariv! Baruch Hashem, the baby was born about 10 seconds after they got into the hospital – shomer p’sayim Hashem.
    This is what yeshivish has become.
    NoMesorah pointed out the leadership vacuum. When did Chareidim become like chassidim, and need a Rebbe in charge? Each time a Gadol Hador passes away, everyone goes crazy trying to figure out who gets the title next! Why does it matter? You have your Rav, listen to him! This is exactly one of the things the Gra feared with his opposition to Chassidus – the elevation of the Rebbe to a position above that of a person.
    It fits for Joseph to quote Rabbonim from 60-70 years ago when he wants to, what about the Gra? Joseph, do you oppose chassidus? After all, it had no mesorah at all, and was opposed by the Gadol Hador at the time! Does this not fit your narrative?

    This entire thread is truly sickening. The sinas chinam showed here is terrifying. Aveirah, I fully agree with those who said that you should not be in a classroom. I pray that one day you are found out for the hateful person you are, and you get blacklisted.

    This has turned into a rant, because I’m just so sickened by this. These hateful people should be begging for forgiveness from the thousands of people they are insulting.


    Dear Mods please put an end to this thread and delete it. It is getting so full of hatred and from one yid to the next. There is nothing constructive coming from it. Only sinas chinam.

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