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Books, etc. DaasYochid, I’m looking at you.
We’ll, according to Rav in Chulin 95b…
All foul language is bad. Some is assur, I guess it depends on which type.
Nivel peh?
We eat chickens and turkeys all the time, and they only use fowl language.
All foul language is bad. Some is assur, I guess it depends on which type.
Do you mind elaborating?
Merely crude language may not be assur, but nivul peh, where a certain subject is discussed gratuitously, is assur.
Saying curse words is assur. <There is more to the sugya than that so don’t just rely on what I said>
But as you said, I don’t think that there is any formal prohibition on hearing or reading curse words.
Inappropriate subjects are also assur to talk about, I believe, but I don’t know if there is a 100% formal prohibition to listen to such things. Can you cite me a source, besides Shulchan Aruch 307:16?
DY, does that hold true for both males and females?
Why besides ?”?, ?”??
Letakein Girl- Why do you have a hava imana there is a difference?
DaasYochid- Why do you burden yourself with writing the hebrew mareh mokomos? Can you type in hebrew?
We eat chickens and turkeys all the time, and they only use fowl language.
Do you eat fish?
JT,
I thought there might be a difference because when males discuss a certain topic, there can be physical consequences that are actual aveiros, whereas females won’t have that reaction.
LG, it’s true that one of the issurim involved only applies to men, but it’s still prohibited for women.
JT, it’s not so difficult to type a few letters in Hebrew. BTW, it’s also mentioned in ??”? ?”?.
JT, do you have a m.m. that’s it’s forbidden to use curse words?
LG, it’s true that one of the issurim involved only applies to men, but it’s still prohibited for women.
IM EH 1:69
Vlo Sussro applies to woman.
Has anyone yet clearly explained the difference between nivel peh and curse words?
See Rambam on Avos Perek 1 mishna 16 ??”?, ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ????, ???? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???.
Also see the Sefer Nidchey Yisrael by the Chofetz Chaim chapter 20 towards the end where he calls it a ???? and a ??? and if you use ???? ?? any ???? ????? you speak later (including ?????? ????? ?????) will all go to destruction.
Thanks, DY.
It is hard to know what op is asking, but ut dhould be obvious tgat onw can discuss a prohibited topic using refined speech, and can completely foul an innocent statement by cussing like a sailor
And thanks JT! Your reply wasn’t posted yet when I thanked DY.
How does a word get classified as proper or improper (foul) speech in the first place?
Often, terms that refer to parts of the body or bodily functions that people are uncomfortable discussing in public are classified as improper except in very limited situations and audiences (like doctors, etc).
Insults, however, can be composed of even the most acceptable words.
Technically speaking, “curse” words only describe those expressions designed to put a “hex” on another person and have nothing to do with foul language.
You have a. nivel peh, b. curses, c. foul language and d. crude language. Some are assur and some are muttar. Yet no one has clearly outlined which is assur and which isn’t or even explained the definition of each and the differences between them.
JT, it’s not so difficult to type a few letters in Hebrew.
You have a hebrew keyboard?
On my computer keyboard, I have Hebrew stickers. On my Android device, I use Google keyboard with Hebrew turned on.
Most keyboards can be used for Hebrew.
Most keyboards can be used for Hebrew.
I know that, but not everybody has the Hebrew stickers so you don’t know which English letter corresponds to Hebrew.
Don’t you have an on-screen keyboard?
I’m not a big fan of them.
Neither am I but sometimes it’s the best option.
If you want to bring ??? ????? into this, I might sooner say that appropriate books are assur. The Sefer Hachinuch (387) writes:
??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????, ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????
In other words (the derasha of ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? notwithstanding), ??? ????? is not specifically referring to “inappropriate” things; it is referring to any (excessive) pursuit of physical pleasures. The Rambam in Sefer Hamitzvos (47) similarly writes:
????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???’ ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???
Also, according to R’ Moshe the issur is specifically ??? ????? ????? ???? ????.
It is perhaps notable that the Pele Yoetz, in the section on nivul peh, speaks severely about speaking and listening to nivul peh but makes no mention of reading it.
The gemara in Brachos 12B learns out that ??? ????? is hirhuri avierah.
I preempted that with my parenthetical.
???? ????? is not ????.
The Sifri and the Yalkut Shimoni have the girsa as ????. But regardless of whether the derasha is referring to ???? or ?????? ????? or both, my point was that according to the Rambam and the Sefer Hachinuch it is not limited to those categories; it applies to all pursuit of gashmius.
I think you missed my point. ???? ????? is ???? ????? ?? ?????” .?????”
Where did I indicate anything to the contrary?
My mistake. ???? ?????, not “????”, another mistake I made.
Comlink: Jewish men have generally always had high literacy rates even when living in areas where the local gentile population were mostly illiterate.
Yes, but that type of material may not have been published.
DY makes a very good point. But it certainly is a different point than the one Comlink made that I addressed.
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