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From the Wikipedia article on Jabotinsky:
Obviusly Weizman did not consider saving all of Europe’s Jews a possibility in the face of British opposition. You can also google “Bergson Group”.
HaKatan: I looked up your quote from Ben Gurion. If he said it at all, you took it out of the context he appears to have said it in. His point was that in England they still wouldn’t be safe, while in Israel they were guaranteed to not be slaughtered.
And I looked up your quote of the “Zionist war”. It all dates back to a political scientist named M. Raphael Johnson, YS”V who wrote in 2001 about an economic boycott. This person also puts “the Holocaust” in quotation marks and claims that the “Jewish mafia” has controlled all organized crime in the world for the past two decades and that they actually control much of the world. He also claims that the Rabin assassination was because Rabin wanted to help slow this organized crime. Yeah, such an anti-Semite is a great source for you to use.
lesschumras -“Heath how much Torah education did the Turks fund?”
This is such a funny comment because all the MO’s here are constantly calling on Israel to stop funding for Yeshivos and you’re now using it to defend the Tzionim???
They only fund Yeshivos because this is in the law right now!
“Why do the evil tzionim grant army exemptions to Chareidim instead of making army service mandatory for everybody?”
Are you talking about deference on army service for Yeshiva Bochurim? Again this was one of the stipulations that was ironed out with the Frumme during the creation of the state.
Avi K -“The State of Israel is a fact. Make aliya, become a citizen and at least vote for change.”
Hopefully this fact of having this Treif Medina will end soon with the coming of Moshiach!
And even if you live there -you aren’t allowed to vote.
To all who haven’t been brainwashed with the Tzioni garbage, I recommend a book called “Perfidy”, to learn the truth about the Zionists & the Holocaust!
I stand fully behind Health and HaKatan. Unfortunately I don’t have the time to participate in this discussion as actively as they do, but – Health and HaKatan, know that I fully agree with you both.
So do many others I know. We’re not alone, even though sometimes it feels like the entire world has gone crazy, as if they’re all suffering from some sort of contamination that leads them to believe in ridiculous things like Zionism.
I feel that NK do a great job in showing the entire world that not all Jews are Zionists. I have *personally* spoken to Arabs who said that in the past they absolutely hated Jews but, since they heard NK somewhere, they would no longer attack Jews in the streets – because they knew not every Chareidi Jew is a Zionist, and that some are actually anti-Zionist.
NK have saved many (Jewish) lives, not only in Iran, but in Europe as well. I believe NK saved more Jewish lives, with their numbers of 1000 or so, than the Zionists with their 5 million or so (and that’s only the ones inside the Medinah).
@Health: I never read “Perfidy”, but I can recommend the sefer “Efes Biltecha Goaleinu” by the Irgun Natrina which can be downloaded from the website of Natrina, or purchased in decent seforim stores. That, and the short version of Vayoel Moshe (I have the full one as well), and Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTemuroh, and some of the Dibros Kodesh and numerous other seforim. There’s also an easy-to-read Yiddish version of Vayoel Moshe for those who may read that easier. I wonder when there will be an English translation, it is badly needed.
“Efes Biltecha Goaleinu” has haskomos from several major rabbonim include one who I personally knew in Yerushalayim.
The Chassidishe Gatesheader -Thank you!
“I never read “Perfidy”,”
I never have read it from cover to cover either, but I have seen parts.
It’s not people like us that need to read these Seforim/books, it’s the people who are drinking the Tzioni (Zionist) Kool Aid that need to!
They won’t read it anyway – they don’t care. We do need to read it, davka because we live in a world where unfortunately 99% of Am Yisroel has been corrupted by these feelings (or, you could say, infected by this disease).
It’s not just Zionism – it’s what Zionism led to. Zionism led to Jews feeling they can take control, feeling they are entitled to things. It leads to aggressive organizations such as the ADL, it leads to a completely different mindset, that of the “strong Jew with muscles”. We don’t need muscles. We have our brains, we have our Torah – that is where our strength lies. Our strength does not lie in fitness and kickboxing. (I am not speaking against sports – I am speaking against those who believe they need to protect themselves from goyim by preparing themselves for physical fights.)
We must remember this is golus, here and in E”Y. I, too, have been attacked several times by goyim of Jewish descent R”L; in Yerushalayim, in Bnei Brak, and other places. The answer lies in humility and submission. That is difficult because it goes straight against the human mind – especially the male one. We want to be strong, independent, we want to take care of ourselves, we want to be without fear. But that is not the path the leaders of Klal Yisroel ever took.
In America nowadays, Jewish ‘leaders’ openly attack, ridiculize and mock the President when they disagree with him. I cannot imagine any sane rav agreeing to such behavior.
Health,you didn’t answer my question..who passed the law that funds Torah education? Regardless of why, did the evil Zionists grant deferments?
lesschumras -“Health,you didn’t answer my question..who passed the law that funds Torah education? Regardless of why, did the evil Zionists grant deferments?”
What’s your point? E/o knows the Knesset passes the laws. They didn’t pass these laws because they are Tzadikim -they did it as any business deal. The Frumme gave them something they wanted and in exchange they gave the Frumme something they wanted. You don’t have to have any Hakoras Hatov for this, unless when you go into a store to buy something you fall all over the store owner thanking him for allowing you to purchase something by him!
Health, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. BTW, the term “treife medina” was originally applied to the US. When Rav Aharon Kotler was trying to decide to where to escape he used the goral haGra and came up with “Aharon followed Moshe into the desert”. He understood that he was supposed to follow Rav Moshe into the desert of Tora.
In Israel (or Eretz Yisroel) nowadays, Jewish ‘leaders’ openly attack, ridiculize and mock the existing government constantly. I cannot imagine any sane rav agreeing to such behavior.
CG, so did the fact that Israel was at the time of WW2 a place where Jews could go. were Jewish lives saved at that time because the Zionists had helped bring Jews there and have a place for them? Because there were not enough visa’s to other countries, and those who got to Israel would have perished.
Is that not a good thing?
You may be aware that many Jews were already secular in places like Prague, Vienna, even in Poland. They weren’t particularly Zionist either.
No country is perfect but Israel has done some very good things in the world both for Jews and non Jews.
Arabs saying they hate Jews less, because of NK, you can beleive that, I will take that with a gram of salt.
But no Zionism, is /was not perfect, what system is though.
“The answer lies in humility and submission.”
That has generally meant being good citizens, even if the leader was someone who destroyed the Temple (Bavel) or those in power late in the second Temple era such as Hordus or Yanni.
Suddenly complete contempt for the existing government has become “frumkeit”.
Josh, there is a difference between “attack” and “ridicule and mock”. There is an obligation to attack actions which are improper as did the nevi’im. However, one must refrain from ridiculing and mocking – that is to say attacking the person rather than the action.
Avi K -“Health, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.”
Exactly! The difference between me and you is -what is the problem and what is the solution. To me the Medina is the problem and the coming of Moshiach is the solution. You obviously feel the Medina is the solution. How could a Medina based on Kefira be the solution IF you are a Jew who believes in the Torah?
Josh31 -“I cannot imagine any sane rav agreeing to such behavior.”
And I can’t imagine any sane Rov telling people to go to the army & openly supporting the Medina!
Josh31 -“Suddenly complete contempt for the existing government has become “frumkeit”.”
Actually Zionism has been attacked by Gedolim & Frum Yidden since its’ conception. By conception -I don’t mean conception of the state, but of the Idea as Israel as a homeland before the coming of Moshiach!
Avi K -“However, one must refrain from ridiculing and mocking – that is to say attacking the person rather than the action.”
Actually the S’A says it’s a Mitzva to ridicule & mock Kefira!
Glad to see more ppl agreeing with Satmarer shitta..
I once hearsd the reason why R’ Moshe Ber Beck gives the gifts,celebrates, with ‘the cousins’ is for the same reason Yakov Avinu came with gifts to Eisav when Yakov knew his brother was coming to kill him..
And if its true, as the Gerrer posted so many jews were saved from killed maybe for that it is worth it..
NO I am NOT an NK!!
Avi, specific protest is consistent with being a good citizen. The attitude of NK and its fellow travelers (including some in this CR) is that of ridiculing and mocking. Giving aid and comfort to sworn enemies is recognized as treason here in the US.
The acceptance of the present government at least as a “fait accompli” as the Agudah did is consistent with our Mesorah.
To ‘health’ and all the other Eretz Yisroel deniers, please explain to me the Rambam in hilchos melochim concerning Moshiach (based on the gemara, by the way). If you cannot do that, please give me at least an answer to what i wrote earlier concerning “sholosh shevuos”, showing that it obviously lapsed at the beginning of the second bais hamikdosh.
Health,
1. It is only a mitzva to mock and ridicule avoda zara. Nobody holds the Medina is a divinity.
2. Zionism has alsao been supported by gedolim and frum Jews since its inception.
3. If you do not want to be part of the solution then you are part of the problem.
Mom, Yaakov also davened and prepared for war.
rabbiofberlin -“To ‘health’ and all the other Eretz Yisroel deniers, please explain to me the Rambam in hilchos melochim concerning Moshiach (based on the gemara, by the way). If you cannot do that, please give me at least an answer to what i wrote earlier concerning “sholosh shevuos”, showing that it obviously lapsed at the beginning of the second bais hamikdosh.”
You obviously are clueless -the three Shevuos are a minor problem. The main problem is their Kefira and that they don’t keep the Torah!
Avi K -“Health,
1. It is only a mitzva to mock and ridicule avoda zara. Nobody holds the Medina is a divinity.”
What and being an Atheist is better than Avodah Zora?
So it’s a Mitzva to mock the Medina -they are a bunch of Kofrim.
“2. Zionism has alsao been supported by gedolim and frum Jews since its inception.”
Most Gedolim Did Not support it!
“3. If you do not want to be part of the solution then you are part of the problem.”
I posted this above, but I guess you don’t read anybody else’s posts:
“Exactly! The difference between me and you is -what is the problem and what is the solution. To me the Medina is the problem and the coming of Moshiach is the solution. You obviously feel the Medina is the solution. How could a Medina based on Kefira be the solution IF you are a Jew who believes in the Torah?”
“The main problem is their Kefira and that they don’t keep the Torah!”
Our Mesorah is to be good citizens even of countries based upon real Avodah Zara (idolatry) such as in the first Exile of Bavel. This Mesorah has been a key to survival of the Torah community.
Health: The Gemara says that “Kol Leitzanusa Assura L’vad Me’avodah Zarah”. It doesn’t say Kefira, just Avodah Zarah.
Very few are real atheists. In fact, Rav Kook pointed out that even in his time those who “opposed” Tora did not know what they were “opposing”. The problem is that the Medina is not run 100% according to Halacha (Rambam, in Hilchot Melachim 4:10, counts four jobs of the secular authorities: defense, fighting crime, establishing justice and spreading Tora. According to the Avnei Nezer in YD 312 they are only to stop aveirot ben adam lechavero not aveirot ben adam laMakom such as chillul Shabbat). The main problem being the civil justice system (the criminal justice system is anything the public, as the equivalent of the king, wants)is not run according to Halacha and that part of the educational system more-or-les ignores Jewish traditions. The solution is for frum Jews to make aliya, become citizens and vote for change and for Tora learners to learn and teach hilchot medina.
“And if its true, as the Gerrer posted so many jews were saved from killed maybe for that it is worth it..”
If you meant me… I’m not a Gerrer… Far from it. Not that I have anything against Gerrer chassidim or the Gerrer Rebbe or, for that matter, anyone else. I’m not into petty politics and infighting.
@Health: “You obviously are clueless -the three Shevuos are a minor problem. The main problem is their Kefira and that they don’t keep the Torah!”
I disagree. Even if the Medinah would consist only of Shomer Shabbos people it is still a treife medinah. Why? Because of the sholosh shvuos. A ‘frum state’ would be like kosher pig. Zionism being wrong has absolutely nothing to do with their being seculars. The problem is in the meridah against the umos ha’olam and the dechikas hakeitz, in the aliyah bechomah. If they would all spend 18 hours per day learning Torah and davening their state would still be out of the question. Frum opposition to Zionism has *nothing* to do with Zionism being secular or religious.
Zionism allowed many Jews to flee the nazi’s Yemach Shemmam, and raise families in Israel, which many of these children and grandchildren are now Baalei Teshuva or at very least keep a Pessach seder, Kosher, marry Jews, and other Mitzvos.
Had they been killed, nothing.
had they gone to America, these grandchildren would be intermarried.
I know many survivor families in American where in fact the children of the survivor intermarried without even some conversion. Imagine the extra anguish.
I don’t see this as so black and white. Yes there is bad in Zionism but also there is good.
” Why? Because of the sholosh shvuos”
there is ample Gedolim who refute this point. The Avnei Nezer writes that this oath does not apply when the nations give Yisrael permission to return.
Rav Teichtal, in his work, “Em Habanim Smeicha,” offers another explanation. Although the Jews were sworn not to enter Eretz Yisrael forcefully, the nations of the world were also sworn not to persecute the Jews too much. Over the course of the exile, the Jews were severely persecuted by the gentiles. Because the gentiles violated their oath, the Jews were no longer bound by their oath.
The author of the “Hafla’ah” maintains that the oaths only apply to those who are in the exile of Bavel, and not in other lands.
R’ Chaim Vital explains that the oath only applied for 1000 years, not longer.
The Gra writes that the oath applies only to building the Beit Hamikdash, not to entering Eretz Yisrael.
Elsewhere in the Gemara there are other, conflicting, sources. Furthermore, the Gemara regarding the “Three Oaths” is aggada, and we do not decide halacha based on aggada.
also Gateheader see Rav Dessler on this subject, which he built the Gatehead Yeshiva and community that where you reside.
The Chassidishe Gatesheader -“I disagree. Even if the Medinah would consist only of Shomer Shabbos people it is still a treife medinah. Why? Because of the sholosh shvuos. A ‘frum state’ would be like kosher pig. Zionism being wrong has absolutely nothing to do with their being seculars. The problem is in the meridah against the umos ha’olam and the dechikas hakeitz, in the aliyah bechomah. If they would all spend 18 hours per day learning Torah and davening their state would still be out of the question. Frum opposition to Zionism has *nothing* to do with Zionism being secular or religious.”
First of all -Not e/o agrees with the Satmar Rebbe.
Second of all -You misconstrued my point! I never said it was Mutter. There is a an Ikkar and a Toful in Yiddishkeit. The Ikkar is Not to be a Koifer!
Josh31 -“Our Mesorah is to be good citizens even of countries based upon real Avodah Zara (idolatry) such as in the first Exile of Bavel. This Mesorah has been a key to survival of the Torah community.”
Your implication that Charedim aren’t good citizens speaks volumes about your Sinas Chinum towards them. What – you found a few who aren’t perfect because they spit & throw stones? So every Charedi is prime target for you Racists?
Sam2 -“Health: The Gemara says that “Kol Leitzanusa Assura L’vad Me’avodah Zarah”. It doesn’t say Kefira, just Avodah Zarah.”
Kefira is a type of Avodah Zara! There are many proofs -I’ll just give you one. In Mitzrayim it says Pharoh considered himself a diety. This is AZ. It also says “Mee Hashem Asher Eshmah Lo?” or something like this. Kefira was the root of the AZ there.
Avi K -“Very few are real atheists.”
In those days I doubt it. All the Gedolim said Rav Kook was wrong.
Nowadays most are probably Tinuk Sneshbas.
The problem nowadays is with the “Frum” Tzionim, like the MO’s, Mizrachists and a lot of posters here!
Health: I think, that when you proudly admitted to hating other Jews, that you lost any right to accuse others of Sinas Chinam, whether or not you feel that you have a Mitzvah to hate whoever you hate.
“there is ample Gedolim who refute this point. The Avnei Nezer writes that this oath does not apply when the nations give Yisrael permission to return.”
Did he write anything about the UN having a status of a universal beis din? Not that I know. The nations living in the land obviously did not agree.
The others are also refuted… but as I said before, I lack the time to go into these ever-lasting discussions. You won’t move from your stance, neither will I from mine, so what’s the point in these discussions? Let’s just try to focus on what keeps us together rather than that which divides us. We’re still 1 people and we still believe in (the same) Hashem. All these little differences are exaggerated here.
“To ‘health’ and all the other Eretz Yisroel deniers”
What exactly is an Eretz Yisroel denier? No one is denying the existence of Eretz Yisroel. It has existed since the creation of the world.
Health, HaKatan, and The Chassidishe Gatesheader are against the existence of the Zionist STATE of Israel.
The boundaries of ERETZ Yisroel are defined by the Torah. So if, for example, you live in Eilat; you would not give Terumah and Maaser, because Eilat is not part of Eretz Yisroel.
The boundaries of the present-day STATE of Israel are defined by politics and wars. For example, at one time, the Sinai Peninsula belonged to the State of Israel; but now, it does not.
Health: Your proof is nothing. He meant that why should he listen to the Jewish deity over any other that he believed existed. Kefira is not Avodah Zarah. That’s just not true. We have Perakim in Shas and Simanim in Shulchan Aruch devoted to defining Avodah Zarah. Apikorsus and atheism are entirely separate things. They’re terrible things, yes, but they’re not Avodah Zarah.
After more consideration, the only point NK can possibly have is the one on top of their heads.
CG,
1. The three oaths are not brought to haalcha by any of the major codifiers.
2. The Chatam Sofer says (Responsa OC end oif 51) that someone who mixes Halacha and Aggada is like someone who makes kilayim.
3. Rav Meir Simcha, who was an ardent supporter of Zionism in general and the JNF (HaTor, 2nd publising year, 3rd edition)in particular wrote (HaTekufa HaGedola pg. 174) that since the San Remo Conference there is no problem of rebelling against the Goyim. The Netziv also noted that the Zionist movement operated legally in Russia (Shivat Tzion 17). Moreover, the Goyim violated their end of the bargain (to not persecute us “too much”) on several occasions so the deal is off anyway.
4. Which nations living in the Land? The Druze, Beduin and Circassians are all loyal citrizens who serve in the IDF. The “Palestinians” are actualy an erev rav of Arabs wo came from other countries in search of economic opportunities opened up by the Zionists.
CG, But then what is your objection to the state of Israel? If I am reading you correctly, you are a sort of NK supporter, just haven’t crossed the line into activism?
Do you think there is any good at all in Israel as we know the state?
and compared to say the intermarriage rates in the UK and the US and other countries, is this not good that in Israel there are 90% Jewish marriage rates?
Yes some intermarry but not as in the outside.
Would you say that this is a good thing, and if that there was no state of Israel, these Jews by now, would be not Jews anymore, in terms of the prevailing intermarriage rates in the Chu”ll?
As well that the existence of the Zionist movement that a place populated by Jews then lent itself to save Jewish refugees who were able to escapte the inferno at the last moment, incl. I believe the Satmar Rebba and many other Chassidishe Rabbonim, and many later leaders of Agudah in the USA, and many Roshei Yeshiva, who likely, of course we cannot say for sure, but they had no other option at the time, would have also perished in Auscwicz?
I would like to know if you consider this fact a good or bad thing?
Same goes with support for Torah learning and in both Dispora as well in Israel, for teachers and Rabbeim.
How do you explain the phenomon wherein Birthright programs takes Jews who were on the road to Intermarriage and were not associated in any way with Jewish life and able to become part of their local communities and performing Mitzvos. Is this a good thing or not?
“So every Charedi is prime target for you Racists?”
Wow, Health called me a racist.
The vast majority of Charedim have accepted the Agudah’s position and participate as citizens of Medinat Yisroel.
For those who cannot accept this “fait accompli” and will not participate as citizens and in the economy:
The Chassidishe Gatesheader needs to get them British visas so they can join him in Gateshead and participate as British citizens and in the English economy.
Sam2 -“Health: Your proof is nothing.”
Oh really?
“He meant that why should he listen to the Jewish deity over any other that he believed existed. Kefira is not Avodah Zarah. That’s just not true. We have Perakim in Shas and Simanim in Shulchan Aruch devoted to defining Avodah Zarah. Apikorsus and atheism are entirely separate things. They’re terrible things, yes, but they’re not Avodah Zarah.”
Did you ever hear of Halalu Oivday AZ V’halalu etc.? The answer was Emunah.
So it has to be Emunah is greater than AZ & vice versa Kefira is worse than AZ. If not, Hashem would never have taken them out. Only if the Mitzva is greater would this counter act the Aveira!
Btw i have read perfidy from cover to cover. Recommend it.
Health: You are trying to create a Halachic concept by taking line from Aggadic Midrashim and giving a Halachic P’shat in them? Come on. You know that’s not how Halachah works. And who says the difference was Emunah? Maybe the difference was that HKBH promised this to their forefathers? That makes much more sense, since the Passuk itself tells us that B”Y didn’t believe Moshe.
Why am I responding to this again…
@Avi K: Go get a copy of Vayoel Moshe. I’m not going to waste time on this here.
@adams: I am not as radical as they are. My job requires me to work with the Israeli military and security services daily and I have no issues with that. The State of Israel exists and there is no point denying that. (I didn’t vote there, however.)
The danger nowadays, as Health pointed out as well, lies with the ‘true’ Zionists – the type who feel Israel needs to rule over the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip and ship out the Arabs to Jordan. The ones who stir anti-Semitism among the Arabs at every opportunity they get, by burning down mosques and building outposts. Now if that is my main concern, all that does is equate me to the Israeli ‘leftist’ camp. As a matter of fact, my favorite Israeli source of news is Haaretz and my favorite writer there is Gideon Levy, who speaks both in defense of chareidim and Arabs very often. I’m sure you hate Gideon Levy and Haaretz from the bottom of your heart, but have you any idea of how often Gideon Levy has spoken out in defense of chareidim and in opposition to the modern anti-Semitism of secular Israel? You’d be amazed. If there is anyone in Israel you could compare my political opinions to, Gideon Levy and others such as Amira Hass would probably be closest.
CG,
1. Get a copy of “Torat Eretz Yisrael” by Rav David Samson and read it.
2. With your blame-the-Jews attitude you would fit in very well with the “genteel” anti-Semites in Britainstan. I suppose you also think that the Jews provoked the Nazis.
You can even be the author of Perfidy <Megilat Eicha> and then tell everyone to be good citizens of the State of Israel <Bavel>.
I personally do not equate Zionism and the founding of the present Jewish State with the destruction of the first Temple and Bavel. But for those who do, that is no excuse not to be now good citizens if you live there.
For those who cannot be good citizens of Israel, there is Gateshead or Kiryat Yoel.
Josh31 -“But for those who do, that is no excuse not to be now good citizens if you live there.”
And you wonder why I call you a racist? Who told you 99.99% of Charedim aren’t good citizens? Because you found a few who throw rocks and spit? Blaming all the Charedim for the actions of a few is called Racism! Didn’t you go to school where they have secular subjects? If yes, how come you don’t know the definition of a Racist?
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