East Ramapo budget should be voted down

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  • #1299621

    Joseph
    Participant

    LC, you completely missed the point. If busing under two miles is eliminated, that will affect public school students far more severely than Yeshiva students since Yeshiva students are far more likely to live further from their school than public school students.

    #1299643

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think people who don’t live there shouldn’t tell people who do what they should do.

    The people of East Ramapo want the State to bail them out. Therefore any votes in East Ramapo affect all New York State Taxpayers

    #1299646

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, in my town schools were built to minimize the distance any child would br from the closest school. Despite your unproven claims, I find it hard to believe that most public school children don’t live within easy walking distance , under a mile. If you disagree, please cite your source, not just made up numbers.

    #1299667

    Matan1
    Participant

    Joseph, what chilull Hashem in YU are you talking about?

    #1299672

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    Where did you see anywhere that ERCSD is looking for a “bail out”. There are separate items seeking a fairness in the formula. That is not a bail out. That is getting what should be rightfully paid to the district from state education dollars.

    And following your “logic” why would the rest of state only want to pay for extra luxuries of the public school children and not for the safety of all children?

    You are so adamant

    #1299674

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Public funding for private schools is like public funding for private parks.

    #1299706

    Joseph
    Participant

    Matan1, oh I don’t know, maybe having university sponsored toeiva clubs, the masgiach having a campus meeting to publicly support baalei toeiva, the President calling Bnei Torah “cavemen”, are just a few of the things over the decades that immediately come to mind.

    #1299707

    Joseph
    Participant

    Public funding for private schools is like public funding for pubic schools. Both should happen.

    #1299741

    Joseph
    Participant

    Today is Tuesday, the big day in East Ramapo!

    Don’t forget to vote early and vote often against the proposed tax increase.

    #1299766

    huju
    Participant

    Joseph evidently thinks it will be good for the Jews if the citizens of East Ramapo who must rely on the public schools get as little education as legally possible.

    The problem in the East Ramapo school district is that a majority of voters prefer private schools – yeshivas in particular – over public schools, and do not get any direct benefit from school taxes. Hence the school board – which is elected by the majority of voters – proposes low levels of spending on public schools. This is understandable and lawful, but it creates a serious problem for the minority of East Ramapo residents who rely on public schools to educate their children.

    There is no easy way out of this dilemma, but Joseph is not looking for one. We should consider funding public schools on a state-wide basis, not district-by-district, to eliminate the disparities between rich and poor districts, and lighten the tax burden on parents preferring private schools.

    #1299770

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you live in Williamsburg and you kids go to school in Borough Park, The city does not pay for school busing, It is more than 2 miles away

    How come you are not talking about the safety of those students, and other than the b110 bus its not so easy to get from Williamsburg to Borough Park via Public transport , which is what NYC students do for the most part.

    I know people who live in Far Rockaway and go to School in Brooklyn and the city does not pay busing, you are on your own.

    #1299777

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    New York State gives money to all school districts . The formula is based on taxpayers and public school students.

    East Ramapo wants the formula changed as they say its unfair to the district because most students there go to private schools and not public schools, so thats how they want the state to bail them out.

    #1299800

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The formula is based on taxpayers and public school students.

    East Ramapo wants the formula changed as they say its unfair to the district because most students there go to private schools and not public schools, so thats how they want the state to bail them out.

    That’s not a bail-out. It’s perfectly reasonable to say that funding should be based on all of the students who are legally entitled to the funds.

    They’re not asking for a bail-out, they’re asking to fix a flawed funding formula.

    #1299802

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Joseph are you encouraging voter fraud? vote early and often?

    #1299804

    Joseph
    Participant

    huju, the real fix is to get rid of all legal restrictions on public funding of private schools. This is legally and legislatively doable (whether state legislation or amendment.) And then school taxes should equally pay for the school of choice of each child, whether public or private.

    #1299933

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, how come you and other private funding advocates are not makpid on all the other mandates. You’re quick to point to busing but ignore the mandated secular subjects that a good many yeshivas ignore as well. I would agree to private funding of any yeshiva that proved and documented that they taught the secular curriculum. If they don’t, why should taxpayers pay for them? Besides, you’d also then have to pay for Muslim midrassas also

    #1299937

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I would agree to private funding of any yeshiva that proved and documented that they taught the secular curriculum.

    Do you mean public funding?

    #1299941

    Joseph
    Participant

    LC, the Supreme Court ruled in 1972 in Wisconsin v. Yoder that state law mandates on secular studies cannot be enforced on religious communities that object to them as those law then illegally infringe on the free excersize of religion.

    #1299948

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    lesschumras…………………….
    In my town there are 5 public elementary schools, 2 middle schools and 1 high school
    Almost 98% of students receive bus transportation (as does virtually every student in private schools in town).
    We live on the same street as an elementary school, 3/10th of a mile away. Every student on our street except for those living in the same block as the school gets bus service.

    WHY????? SAFETY…here in small town CT outside of the immediate town center there are no sidewalks and it is unsafe to walk. Public school rules do not permit students to ride their bikes to school for the same reason. Our taxpayers would rather pay more in taxes than endanger walking children

    #1299951

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I believe East Ramapo is the only school district in the country, let alone the state that has more students in Private schools than public schools, so any change of the state formula would only benefit this one district and would be a bailout even if that wasnt the intention.

    if he state would give yeshivas the money then they would have the right to dictate terms on what can be taught. Without the money they have alot less control of what is the curriculum

    #1299990

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD, if the state doesn’t provide additional funding, it is the pubic school kids who suffer, not the private school kids.

    #1300012

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    State support of Public schools is a the law, State support of private schools is not. If you dont like the law then change it, but right now that is the current law

    #1300042

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Public schools are open to the any child and that’s the only reason they should get funding.

    #1300054

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, a lack of additional funding only hurts the public school kids and not the private schools kids because of the corruption of the school board in East Ramapo.
    You said earlier that secular education is not mandated, based on a Supreme Court ruling. Let’s assume that’s true. Funding can only be used for non-religious education. If secular subjects aren’t taught, only religious subjects, then why have busing? Busing is so that the kids can be educated. If they aren’t being educated (as defined by the laws, meaning secular subjects), then why should they have busing paid for?

    #1300074

    Joseph
    Participant

    They should (fully) fund secular studies in private schools. Obviously it the school chooses to not give any secular studies, there wouldn’t be any state funding.

    #1300085

    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, I meant public funding of private schools

    CT so, how do the frum kids go to shul,family, friends or local park on Shabbos and Yom tov?
    Joseph, State money is for the state curriculum, which I believe is mandated for all schools in NY. Even if you’re right, then don’t take the money. It’s not a free lunch. If the state we’re to grant your wish and put yeshivas on an equal footing with public schools, then the yeshivas would be subject to same requirements. Their budgets would have to be made public and be subject to voter approval. Gentiles and secular Jews would be allowed to be elected to yeshiva boards etc

    #1300088

    Matan1
    Participant

    Joseph, there is no gay club in YU. The meeting you refer to was to support those struggling with these desires, not promoting any behavior.

    Listen to R’ Lamm’s shiur in full, not just that soundbite.

    #1300095

    Joseph
    Participant

    You’re asking me to disagree with Maran HaGaon HaRav Elya Svei zt’l?

    In any event, there’s exactly such clubs listed on YU’s website as being university funded at both Einstein and Cardoza. And even YUs own roshei yeshiva condemned the meeting at YU that mashgiach R. Joseph Blau attended regarding supporting toeiva.

    #1300102

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, YU takes public funding so the University,( not REITS) is subject to anti discrimination laws. Take government money and you might have to hire a gay teacher for secular subjects

    #1300106

    Joseph
    Participant

    LC, I’m sure even more excuses can be thought of for endorsing and funding such reprehensible clubs. And having such meetings as described above (where, in fact, some students stated their “pride” of being a member) on the undergrad campus.

    #1300121

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The “Alternate Lifestyle” club was not at YU, but rather at Einstein. Einstein and Cardozo are non-sectarian (As is YU) but many students there arent even jewish. They have to obey the New York Law.

    If a yeshiva takes government money and a “Person who thinks they are a woman” wants to teach Gemorah at the yeshiva and the yeshiva says no, That person can sue under the anti-discrimation laws of NY and would likely win

    There was a “Female Couple” where one of the was at Einstein and the partner wanted to live on campus , YU said, NO and the couple sued and won

    #1300128

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “If you live in Williamsburg and you kids go to school in Borough Park, The city does not pay for school busing, It is more than 2 miles away

    How come you are not talking about the safety of those students, and other than the b110 bus its not so easy to get from Williamsburg to Borough Park via Public transport , which is what NYC students do for the most part.

    I know people who live in Far Rockaway and go to School in Brooklyn and the city does not pay busing, you are on your own.”

    So what are you trying to say?

    East Ramapo definitely pay for students who are transported out of the district.

    And you can’t compare NYC top anywhere else in the states. The laws and regulations are different.

    #1300129

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    DaMoshe,

    “Joseph, a lack of additional funding only hurts the public school kids and not the private schools kids because of the corruption of the school board in East Ramapo.”

    Perhaps you should speak to R Bender before slandering the Frum Board members.

    This charge has been alleged, investigated, litigated and monitored. Guess, what there were no findings of corruption by the school board. On the other hand, there has been considerable corruption by the so called activists which was described earlier.

    #1300236

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I wonder how many of the so called experts here, such as LC, ZD or anyone else has even bothered to look at the budget.

    ZD was insistent that special education costs are much higher in ERCSD than anywhere else in the state.
    WRONG. Attached to the budget is a copy of the statistics comparing the district to the state (this is report prepared by the NYSED). The average cost is $4,000 LOWER per student in the district than in state as a whole and in comparison to similar districts (NYS’ designation, not mine.)
    The average cost per public school child is $2,000 HIGHER than the average in the state.

    Total spent on special Education to private schools and out of district schools is approximately 7.99 million out of a total of $65 million spent for Special Education. About 12%. Hmmm. (When the private school population seems to outnumber the public school population by 3.5 – 1)
    And that (7.99 M) is less than the amount spent on extracurricular non-mandated services specifically for the public schools. Such as art, music clubs and sports teams( Beyond mandated PE).

    #1300211

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I tried posting proof of their misconduct. The mods didn’t allow it through.

    #1300237

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The laws of New York State apply the same in Monsey or Borough Park

    #1300327

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I don’t think Einstein is part of YU anymore.

    I also believe that Joseph was referring to the assembly by R Blau which roundly denounced by the Roshei Yeshiva of REITS including R Twerski who minced no words.

    #1300351

    Joseph
    Participant

    “The mods didn’t allow it through.”

    The sheker zapper busted it.

    #1300367

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The incident with the “Alternative Lifestyle female couple” occured while Einstein was part of YU. The couple sued YU for discrimination

    #1300424

    ersd
    Participant

    What I havent seen mentioned here before is ER currently has one of the lowest school tax rates in the county. And according to one of the districts latest bulletins, ER private school students on average are receiving 2000 dollars in benefits per student. This includes money going toward busing, special ed., Title 1,2 ,3 etc..

    #1300460

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ER private school students on average are receiving 2000 dollars in benefits per student. This includes money going toward busing, special ed., Title 1,2 ,3 etc..

    What do ER public school students get on average?

    #1300490

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “The laws of New York State apply the same in Monsey or Borough Park”

    Wrong, again. The law specifically states that there are different rules for districts over a certain size. Which, applies to NYC and possibly Buffalo.

    #1300522

    ersd
    Participant

    I dont know the answer to how much is spent on programming for the public students, I would guess around 15k. But it can not be overlooked that the private school students are getting over 55 million in benefits. And still one of the lowest tax rates in Rockland.

    #1300560

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “private school students are getting over 55 million in benefits. ”

    It wouldn’t be able to be overlooked if that were the case.

    But it isn’t true. Where do you see that anywhere?

    #1300510

    Joseph
    Participant

    “What I havent seen mentioned here before is ER currently has one of the lowest school tax rates in the county.”

    Nothing wrong with that, even assuming that’s accurate. Some counties have lower. Being among the group of some of the lower taxed counties is nothing unusual as some counties will always be among the lower taxed ones.

    Residents of many counties prefer lower taxes.

    “And according to one of the districts latest bulletins, ER private school students on average are receiving 2000 dollars in benefits per student. This includes money going toward busing, special ed., Title 1,2 ,3 etc..”

    Pubic school students, on average – including regular students, special ed, Title 1-2-3, etc. – receive benefits valued many many multiples the benefits received by the average private school student.

    #1300595

    ersd
    Participant

    Joseph having one of the lowest tax rates is fine as long as you dont have to gut the public school programs to get there. Dont you think ER students deserve the same programs as their neighboring districts? I

    #1300623

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “What I havent seen mentioned here before is ER currently has one of the lowest school tax rates in the county. ”

    Huh? That is not supported by anyone’s tax bill.

    #1300779

    Joseph
    Participant

    ersd, the spending per pubic school pupil in East Ramapo is not below the norm or average in the area or in the state.

    =================

    “But it can not be overlooked that the private school students are getting over 55 million in benefits.”

    Considering how many private school students there are in the district, that figure (especially considered per student) is typical for a district in the state to spend per private student.

    #1300878

    ersd
    Participant

    Joseph, you didnt answer my question, since ER has one of the lowest school tax rates in the county due to cuts in programs, do you think that this is right that ER students dont have the same programs as their neighboring districts?

    The reason why I brought up the 2k per student because there are a lot of private school households who think they are getting nothing in return on their school taxes when in fact on average they maybe receiving more benefits than they are paying in taxes.

    #1300924

    ersd
    Participant

    nishtayng go the ER website and read the bulletin. This is the estimated money spent on the private school students for the upcoming school year. Of course you should also add any associated common charges for legal, accounting, clerical, building,etc.
    Transportation 21m
    Special Ed 12.6
    Fed Idea .85
    Title 1 11.8
    Title 2 .3
    Title 3 1.9
    PREK 4.2
    Books 2.2

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