July 16, 2012 3:52 am at 3:52 am #885117
Sam: I’m working with your logic here.
Yeshivish is Chareidi and Chasidish is Chareidi.
So, yes, Feif’s current MO community and young Syag’s MO community have commonality, both being MO.
A Lakewood yungerman and a Boro Park Chosid have commonality, both being Chareidi.
And the Chareidi yungerman has more in common with the Chareidi Chosid than with the MO Feif. And MO Feif has more in common with the young MO Syag, than he does with the Chareidi yungerman.July 16, 2012 4:00 am at 4:00 am #885118
Had you read ANY of the posts you would have heard me say that Feif had much more in common with Chareidim than I did. I said it, re said it and said it again. But if you feel you know my childhood school better than I do, you will prove many stereotypes to be true.July 16, 2012 4:11 am at 4:11 am #885119
Feif said his RWMO community, although they don’t officially condone women with uncovered hair and pants, some women in his community do publicly go as such. In a LWMO community it is officially condoned.
In ANY Chareidi community — Yeshivish/Litvish, Chasidish, etc. — it is virtually unheard of for a married female community member to go with uncovered hair and/or pants. Doing so would clearly put someone outside of the community. (Unlike in the RWMO, such as Feif’s example, where it isn’t officially sanctioned, but they are accepted in shul and in the community as such.)
There are dozens of other similar examples.
Clearly MO (whether RW or LW) are more closely aligned to each other, while Chareidim (whether Litvish or Chasidish) are more closely aligned to each other. Much much more so than MO to Chareidi.
Using these groupings, clearly OTD is a much much more prevalent problem among MO than Chareidim. And your example of most of your MO classmates becoming frei, is a living example.July 16, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #885120
Choppy- “And the difference is that almost every Beis Yaakov has ZERO issues with girls or mothers wearing pants. Or mothers with uncovered hair.
Plus, unlike in Syag’s example where most of the class went OTD, they have a very very small OTD rate.
Clearly the Beis Yaakov’s are doing things right”
Is your goal to keep people on the derech, or is it so they lead fulfilling lifestyles. Theres a big big difference. Scare tactics may work but at what cost?July 16, 2012 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #885121
only when your eyes are closedJuly 16, 2012 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #885122
i would like to clarify, my upbrining was exactly like SYAG describes. i feel silly using terms like “off the derech” because growing up that type of thinking was totally not around. hair covering, skirts, “shomer negiya”… were things that “chasidim” did, not “regular people”. but shabbas and kashrus were absolutely not negotiable. people like me strayed from shabbas and kashrus and everything else simply because we felt no reason not to (aside from family pressure and guilt, which takes you only so far). i felt no connection to any of the “rituals” i was braught up to observe, and it felt natural to leave it all. interestingly, through the years i have become close with many who came from more intense yeshivish upbringings who have gone “otd”, and they seem to have the exact opposite feelings. that they had too much pressure and not enough options. i am well aware that every individual’s circumstances are totally unique and and that no sweeping generalizations can be made on issues like this. whith that being said, the one common denominator i have seen personally is that kids growing up without feeling a connection and an excitement towards Torah and mitzvos are the most vulnerable to leaving it. (obvious, i know.)July 16, 2012 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #885123
Yeshivish316- I was very interested in hearing your opinion on issues that you have personal experience with. Agreed, one personal experience does not equal a scientific study, but it can certainly shed some light on an issue. I posted some questions for you a lot of posts back, but i noticed you skipped right over them.
So here’s another question for you- maybe you”ll answer this one-
How do you feel about what the discussion you started, degenerated into?July 16, 2012 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #885124
They are furthermore accepting students from different backgrounds to begin with. Most Beis Yaakovs will not accept a student if a family member wears pants or a married mother/sister does not cover her hair.
The reason they (the BY OTDs) frequently come back is not because they felt a connection to what their school offered them. It’s oftentimes because someone else from the community (in my case Modern Orthodox Rabbis and women) reached out or because they realized there are other drachot than that of Beis Yaakov. Or, most commonly once a person has settled down they will return back to what is most comfortable and familiar, and back to a similar lifestyle to which they were raised; it’s just easier to fit in that way.
Additionally, having gone through the Beis Yaakov system and having left the path to find my derech, many Beis Yaakov girls have seen me as a safe person to talk to. There are more girls not keeping Shabbat and kosher than you might like to think. And many of them look more observant than the ones who are keeping everything properly. There are also large numbers of Chareidim who are playing the part but internally feel no connection, much more so than by the Modern Orthodox.
This was not to generalize nor to suggest that there are huge numbers in any of the categories mentioned, however, it’s not ‘very very few’ from the Chareidi community, nor are they necessarily doing ‘more right’.July 16, 2012 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #885125
Just one more point. From what I’ve seen of kids from different communities who become non-observant: more frequently than not, the Chareidim who leave, do so with an intense hatred for the lifestyle they grew up with, something you don’t see much with those who leave Modern Orthodoxy.July 16, 2012 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #885126
GOLFER- sorry for skipping your post earlier, and i choose to not pay attention to negativity, and am sorry if i had something to do with bringing out negativity from others. as to your post earlier, most of what you asked has already been clarified,(i grew up “modern” with little understanding of Judaism, and did not leave out of disgust or rebellion)
– when i am dealing with teens or young adults who are in similar situations that i was in i just try to show them naturally the beauty of their heritage. i do NOT judge or try to convince them to “repent” and become religious, kids pick up on your agenda so quickly and then you are locked out and can have no affect anymore. the most importat thing is never to judge and to always try to relate. i know that if i can do that, than by osmosis i can usually have some type of impact, usually positive.
i hope i am being helpfulJuly 16, 2012 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #885127
“Is your goal to keep people on the derech, or is it so they lead fulfilling lifestyles. Theres a big big difference.”
First and foremost is that people be on the frum derech. That is more important than a “fulfilling lifestyle”. Certainly it is far far better that someone be on the frum derech without a “fulfilling lifestyle”, than have a “fulfilling lifestyle” when that is a frei-secular-irreligious “lifestyle”. Ideally, of course, is that one is frum AND lead a fulfilling life.July 16, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #885128
I grew up mo. It is SO not true that this lifestyle leads to going off the derech. How ridiculous!
I happen to have become more frum out of choice. Although my mother only covered her hair in shul, all of us (daughters) cover our hair fully, all the time. My parents kept taharas hamishpacha. None of the girls I went to school with except those on the serious fringe of frumkeit TO BEGIN WITH (the one and only who left a frum school to go to solomon Schechter) went off the derech.
I think this thread has caused more ignorance and damage than good.
Truly, the most ridiculous part is those who have no knowledge first hand of modern orthodoxy commenting on it’s effects on frumkeitJuly 16, 2012 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #885129
In Charedi communties they enforce community standards, they have signs posted on the walls of the latest Chumra
Everything is community controlled so if you stray, they will kick you out of shul and kick your kids out of Yeshiva
In the more modern communities, it doesnt work this way, the yeshivas and Shuls are independent of each other and cannot enforce rules.
The Charedi Shuls and yeshivas are generally run by a person and the yeshiva or Shul is personally his (Or his family), the more modern are run by Boards of Directors and the Rabbi is an employee of the Shul. basically if there is a dispute between the Rabbi and the Big Machers in a Charedi Shul, the Machers are gone, in the Modern Shuls the Rabbi will be gone.July 16, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #885130
Yes, thank you y316, very helpful!July 16, 2012 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #885131
the more modern are run by Boards of Directors and the Rabbi is an employee of the Shul. basically if there is a dispute between the Rabbi and the Big Machers in a Charedi Shul, the Machers are gone, in the Modern Shuls the Rabbi will be gone.
Yup. That’s another problem. Which is why the rabbi’s gotta cater his decisions to the wishes of the masses, not halacha. If there’s a dispute between the machers and the rov, the rov should prevail and the machers put in their place.July 16, 2012 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #885132
In ANY Chareidi community — Yeshivish/Litvish, Chasidish, etc. — it is virtually unheard of for a married female community member to go with uncovered hair and/or pants. Doing so would clearly put someone outside of the community.
In my Scottish community, we all LOVE Haggis. Anyone who doesn’t love Haggis is immediately kicked out of out Scottish community (as “Fake Scots”), so everyone continues to love Haggis. In fact, there have been rumors that many community members don’t love Haggis, and there was an Asifa is Citi Field recently pushing everyone to LOVE Haggis, even in private (showing that it is accepted that many do not love Haggis). However, as long as they LOVE Haggis in public, we still consider them TRUE SCOTSMEN, no matter if they really hate Haggis or not in private.July 16, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #885133
I want to suggest that each of us comment on what we know first hand, from our own lives.
I’ve found with my friends and former classmates that those who were not connected socially, either to their family, their peers or their community, described venturing out of the realm of familiarity to seek comfort. I know of several baalos teshuva who explored other religions (to fill the emptiness) before arriving at frumkeit.
I think (and I’m open to your thoughts) that low self esteem can lead to one of two things: conformity, when accompanied by fear, and seeking an independent route, when perhaps, accompanied more by anger/resentment.
When my son cursed, recently, (something he does not hear in our home, but hears among peers), my husband took the high road. Although I was angry and wanted to punish him, my husband took the perspective of “our child needs to know that he’s above this kind of speech. That it’s beneath him to talk that way”.
I was astounded. He approached our child like a heiligeh Neshoma.July 16, 2012 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #885134
yeshivish316 – Sorry for being part of that. I still am stupid enough, sometimes, to think that if I explain it REALLY clearly, the point will be heard. I should have known better. Your contributions are important and I would really like them to be heard. My husband, who grew up completely secular, and I work very hard to instill meaning in our observance and teach our kids they have an active and loving relationship with Hashem.July 16, 2012 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #885135
Zahavasdad – I felt exactly as you do but the truth is that what you have experienced isn’t true everywhere. Thank Gd. That behavior of theirs is not global. Maybe it is general for your neighborhood or community, but I too always believed it was a given and have learned that it isn’t. I feel like you have too many good things to say to let them be lost on others in the cynism.July 16, 2012 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #885136
i feel bad that somehow i caused negativity to be braught out against large groups of Jews. we are all brothers and sisters, and one thing that everyone can agree on is that baseless judging(especially in a condescending way) is useless and only leads to negativity. my intention here was to offer personal experience to help those looking for info. in this topic, not to spur bickering.July 16, 2012 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #885137
Just wanted to add, y316, i don’t think you had anything to do with bringing out negativity in anyone. Any more than you had anything to do with the 500 empty calories i chose to consume while reading your post. Some people just see negative wherever they look. Especially, i’ve noticed, when the discussion has anything to do with any aspect of our religion; from a man wearing a colored shirt (not really an aspect of our religion as in the Torah & Halacha, but in people’s minds, apparently very closely tied with Judaism) to a married woman wearing a wig (yes, really an aspect of our religion, at least as far a covering her hair goes. Now stick around & wait for people to get upset I said that).
So here’s another question: Does all this negativity turn our youngsters off the whole idea of being an observant Jew?
And is all this negativity a waste of our energies?
Or is it a good thing to burn off some energy so maybe i should stop complaining & join the fun?July 16, 2012 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #885138
choppy- i completely disagree. If your frum lifestyle is not fulfilling, then you shouldnt be doing it. A big rebbe once told me.”I used to think everyone should be as frum as possible, but now im realizing people have to do what makes them happy. If your frum the right way, it should lead to a fullfilling lifestyle. But everyone connects to a different form of Judiasm and people need to do whats right for them. God didnt put us here to suffer.July 16, 2012 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #885139
Yup. That’s another problem. Which is why the rabbi’s gotta cater his decisions to the wishes of the masses, not halacha. If there’s a dispute between the machers and the rov, the rov should prevail and the machers put in their place.
Not everyone who is a Rov is qualified or able to led a shul, having a Board of Directors can rectify this situtation .July 16, 2012 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #885140
Far east: That type of attitude skirts a very dangerous line. Obviously everyone should be fulfilled in what they do, but if they can only find fulfillment in not being Halachah-observant then they need to change what fulfills them (or, worst-case, live an unfulfilled life) rather than feeling good about themselves but not keeping Halachah.July 16, 2012 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #885141
Not everyone who is a Rov is qualified or able to led a shul, having a Board of Directors can rectify this situtation .
Incorrect. The rectification required is to get a qualified rabbi. Not a board who can overrule a rabbi.
far east: With the caveat that one must always fulfill the Torah and Halacha. That cannot be compromised in the slightest in the pursuit of a “fullfilling lifestyle”.July 16, 2012 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #885142
far east, What?? “If your frum lifestyle is not fulfilling then you shouldnt be doing it.” !!?? A Rabbi told you this?!
Not sure what you mean by frum, but if you are referring to Mitzvah observance- putting on tefillin, saying Shma, bentshing after you eat, honoring your parents, teaching your children Torah, the list goes on- 613 long to be precise- then you are 100% wrong.
You were put on this earth to serve your Creator; not to find fulfillment, find happiness, or find a good shidduch. Your Creator has provided you with a detailed guide of how exactly to serve him. You, being a fallible mortal, and not an angel with no yetzer harah, may encounter many difficulties on this path, and may find you have to work hard to accomplish your goal. You will ultimately be judged by the One who made the rules, so you don’t need to worry about what anyone else has to say about your progress or lack thereof. You were not put here to suffer, but you will receive your ultimate reward in the next World. If things seem rough around here that doesn’t excuse you from continuing to strive for perfection, even if you (like almost everybody else who ever tried) never reach it.July 16, 2012 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #885143
The greatest cause for the growing number of OTDs is the growing number of people.
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