August 21, 2019 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1777665
Is it true that there are 7 levels of Gehenim, and the top most sinful of people are tortured?
In a shuir that I partially listened to, and partially heard about from someone else, the rabbi said that this whole “cleansing of the soul” idea of Gehenim is a total fabrication. The reality is that Gehenim is full of pain and punishment.
Eeeks!August 21, 2019 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1778039PhilosophyPsychologyPsychiatryParticipant
It’s brought down in many places, midrashim, zohar, Heichalos. The Ramban in Shaar Hagmul discusses it more in length, but obviously we’re not talking about any physical pain or turture, since your body is laying in the ground and doesnt feel any pain, it’s torture to the persons soul, which if anything is much worse but it’s hard for the human mind to grasp the severity of this “Spiritual Torture”, being that we have never felt spiritual pain and only comprehend what we have in our world and thats only physical pain…August 21, 2019 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1778070munkatchParticipant
ראשית חכמה, שער היראה פרק יג ‘ מסכת גיהנם.
Plenty to read with many details.August 21, 2019 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1778038
I don’t understand your post. If only the top most sinful people are tortured then why is Gehinnim full of pain and punishment? It should only be partly full of pain and punishment if it’s only in the top tie?
And why is cleansing of the soul in gehenim a fabrication? I would assume, without basing my thoughts/feelings on sources but what on what I’ve been taught, that punishment in gehenim is individual. Some people need cleansing of sin and are afterwards get into gan Eden while some mass murderers like Hitler y”s and Stalin y”s are there forever.August 21, 2019 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1778081
What do you do that the neshomo is not responsible because it needs the guf to do the aveira, so they get punished together?August 21, 2019 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1778093
Because of the above question we can conclude that the gehenim is not always a punishment but a cleansing process.August 21, 2019 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1778132MushkythefamousParticipant
Not the Chabad way of looking at thingsAugust 22, 2019 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1778148
Mushky, What is the Chabad way of looking at things?August 22, 2019 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1778130
Laskern, I would assume, that for some neshomos it’s a cleansing process and for mass murderers it’s an everlasting punishment. I don’t think Hitler y”s and those responsible the Crusades or Inquisition can ever be cleansed. Also if I remember correctly, people who b’davka cause others to sin can never be cleansed of their sins.August 22, 2019 9:21 am at 9:21 am #1778222
Philosopher, what you say is correct, for the wicked is יורדים ואין עולים, they are thrown in and not taken out, but for others, it is a temporary cleansihg process.August 22, 2019 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1778301
For up to 11 monthsAugust 22, 2019 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1778276
Raboysai, what in the world are you talking about? If you want to view Gehenom as a cleansing process, it is not like taking a shower! It is full of tremendous pain. And the reason for that is that Gehenom is always a punishment. Just it is that better people get punished and then ascend to receive their reward. I know nowadays people don’t like to hear about punishment, but the truth must be said.August 22, 2019 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1778329
mdd1, Is the guf also punished for doing the aveira?August 22, 2019 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1778328
Really now, I thought cleansing in gehenim means taking a shower! Boy was I mistaken!August 22, 2019 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1778335
Laskern, yes – hibut ha’kever.
Philosopher, from the question posed at the beginning, one may conclude that some people have misconceptions about it.August 22, 2019 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1778338
Philosopher, the idea of “cleansing” doesn’t sound so terrible.
In today’s context, “cleansing,” to me, is a process that I associate with beautification tasks, such as losing weight, cleaning the pores in my face, and rinsing the oils from my hair. I had pictured my soul having to go through a spiritual car wash of sorts, unpleasant, yet necessary, but in no means horrendous and painful.August 22, 2019 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1778341
Philosopher the Chabad way of looking at things is that it is a cleansing process done out of Hashems great love for us. It is painful and experienced as a punishment, but it’s a means to get cleansed to enter gan EdenAugust 22, 2019 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1778349
mdd1, In EY there is no chibut hakever, so he could commit great aveirus in EY and only the neshomo will suffer disagreeing with the gemora that it with the guf are punished together.August 22, 2019 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1778374
Congrats CS on your name changeAugust 22, 2019 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1778363
CS, we all believe Hashem created everything for our good so going through Gehenim as a purification for our souls must be good for us as well. Although I hope to do teshuva so I wouldn’t end up in Gehenim at all…August 22, 2019 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1778362
Ok, perhaps purification is a better descriptive word than cleansing.August 22, 2019 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1778415zahavasdadParticipant
The Idea that gehenom is “Hot” comes from Milton and christianityAugust 22, 2019 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1778442NechomahParticipant
Please clarify something for me. I was under the impression, possibly mistaken, that gehinnom is for Jewish neshomas. The Gan Eden that Yidden go to is different than where the non-Jews go. The necessity to purify the neshoma of a non-Jew, particularly one who did horrible things to the Jews, like Hitler, ym”sh, is totally not clear to me. He is not going to Gan Eden or anywhere close to that, so where does he go?August 22, 2019 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1778443
It says the gehenom is 60 times as hot as our fire.August 22, 2019 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1778450
Nechama, non-Jews go to Gan Eden too. (Non-Jews can be tzaddikim too, Adam and Noach for example were tzaddikim.) The reshuim whose souls cannot be purified go to to the shaul tachtes, the netherworld.August 22, 2019 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #1778469JosephParticipant
Non-Jews like Hitler remain in gehenim forever. He is still burning a horrendous hell every split second over and over again.August 23, 2019 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1778493
CS, if it is done out of great love, why cannot the painful aspect be skipped?August 23, 2019 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1778492sam4321Participant
Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky brought an idea from Rav Simcha Zisel of Kelm who said that there is a machlokes rishonim between the Rambam and the Ramban concerning what is geheniom. The Rambam said like this and the Ramban said like this. However ,we have no understanding of both of their words,but there is a tzad hashava shbenheim – es iz nisht gut( that it is not good).August 23, 2019 9:08 am at 9:08 am #1778529devnyBlocked
Yeah, let’s all chime in on what gehenim really is, cuz we really know… HAHAHAHA
A) We don’t know.
B) Stop believing every little thing you hear in a random shiur.August 23, 2019 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1778574
CA thank you
Philosopher: great so we’re in agreement. I also hope not to end up there.
Mdd1: because when you really love your child you will discipline them as necessary out of your great love. Or to use the mashal, you clean your child’s filthy diaper even though they kick and scream because you love them. If you didn’t love them so much you’d let them sit in it. Similarly Hashem cleans us up from the aveira mess we made so that we can disassociate from the bad and just be left with the good you accomplished forever.August 23, 2019 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1778576
Litebrite you mentioned losing weight which reminds me of a good mashal I heard on the topic of gehennom: people do workouts in the gym which are difficult but rewarding. However the same gym routine can be experienced as torture if it was forced by gunpoint. What’s the difference? By the former you know what you are doing, the purpose it serves and how long it will take. By the latter you don’t know the purpose, or it is done just to cause pain, and you don’t know when it will be over. So too gehennom is experienced as a punishment because you don’t see the meaning behind it but in reality it is a cleansing process for the neshama.August 23, 2019 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1778638
The mishna says the best of the doctors belong in the gehinom because they don’t ask advice. They say as a joke that we need good doctors for the gehinom.August 23, 2019 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1778644
CS, we say on Yom Kippur viduy, we are full of sin and You are full of mercy. Hashem is like the mother, who cleans the baby from the filthy diaper, purifying us from sin.August 23, 2019 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1778682
CS, you compare disciplining and cleaning with Gehenom? Are you serious? Gehenom is terribly, terribly painful. And it is so, because it is a punishment. Again, if it is done out of pure love, let Ha’SHem do it painlessly— nobody is stopping Him.August 23, 2019 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1778688🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“Again, if it is done out of pure love, let Ha’SHem do it painlessly— nobody is stopping Him.”
what are you trying to say here? Are you arguing that it is for a purpose, or are you arguing that it is out of love?
I don’t know what the gemara says about gihenom so I won’t start voicing opinions, but in regard to something being both out of love and horribly painful, that is not a stira. You say nobody is stopping Him. Exactly. Since this is the way Hashem chose to make the process, this is what is in our best interest.
Please explain what you are saying, I would like to understand your point.August 23, 2019 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1778693
My point is that administering justice is a purpose also. Ha’SHem has a hanhogah of Judgement also, not only of Kindness. He can set whatever rules he wants. If it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!
P.S.: and those who burn forever, according to you, what is the purpose and where is the love?August 23, 2019 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1778692HaimyParticipant
The Ramban in his introduction to Iyov tell us that one moment in Gehinom is more painful than all the tzoros of Iyov (quoted by the Chafetz Chaim in one of his seforim).
R’ Levy Yitzchak of berditzev is purported to have said that he’s not afraid of Gehinom because if if it’s rotzon Hashem for him to be there then there’s no better Gan Eden he could experience than fulfilling Hashem’s rotzon.August 23, 2019 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1778697
Haimy, now we can understand the brocho of the women שעשני כרצונו with there existence to serve their husband they fullfil the will of Hashem.August 23, 2019 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1778700🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
…and you liken that to gihenom?
🙂August 23, 2019 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1778704
A woman being with an abusive husband is gehenom.August 23, 2019 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1778705
laskern, if that is what the bracha means, please explain why women have no obligation to marry. If women’s existence is to serve their husbands it would be a woman’s obligation to marry, not her choice. Also please explain why unmarried women, widowed, divorced and spinsters say this bracha as well.August 23, 2019 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1778710
laskern, I’ll answer for you, a woman is a giver, that is the purpose of womens existence. Whether it’s for one’s husband, children or for others. That is different than women being here to serve only their husbands.August 23, 2019 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1778740
Are you saying that Hashem doesn’t “love” all his creations?
“If it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!“
So if you love someone you wouldn’t hurt them even if they would survive? (Like a doctor)
Good שבת everybodyAugust 25, 2019 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1778782
Coffee addict, no, He does not. He doesn’t love Hitler. He doesn’t love Yerovam ben Navat. He hates reshoim.
Again, Gehenom is not just hurting somebody — it it tremendous suffering. Plus, He established all the rules. Why did not He establish just cleansing people without inflicting pain on them?August 25, 2019 2:10 am at 2:10 am #1778811
mdd1, why do people go through trials and suffering in this life too? Maybe Hashem should’ve made a pain-free existence for all living creatures? We can grow from suffering and become better people, that’s why. Having a pain-free existence means would mean that we would stay stagnent and never grow spiritually. Same in the spiritual dimension, the neshoma goes through Gehenim to become a stronger and better spiritual being to be able to enter Gan Eden.
… Actually that’s my guess about Gehenim. It is probably only part of the real reason ( reality can have many aspects or truths to it, not only one) or not the real reason at all. Only Hashem has all the answers to the mysteries of creations.August 25, 2019 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1778854
מעשי ידי טבעים בים ואתם אומרים שירה?
The מצרים were bad peopleAugust 25, 2019 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1778855
Hashem doesn’t have “feelings” feelings are only for those that are bound by time (which Hashem isn’t) when we talk about feelings it’s only in the context of how we understand HashemAugust 25, 2019 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1778856
CS, thank you 🙂🙂🙂August 25, 2019 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1778857
Philosopher, every single rabbi and rebbetzin that I have ever met and/or heard in a lecture says that women are receivers and MEN are givers.August 25, 2019 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1778959
coffee adict, the Sefer Hachinuch says that whoever prays to Hashem, have mercy on me like you have mercy on the bird, we quite him down because he makes Hashem’s commandments humanly with feelings. If this was the case, shechita would not be allowed.
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