Gehenim!馃敟

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  • #1777665

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Is it true that there are 7 levels of Gehenim, and the top most sinful of people are tortured?

    In a shuir that I partially listened to, and partially heard about from someone else, the rabbi said that this whole “cleansing of the soul” idea of Gehenim is a total fabrication. The reality is that Gehenim is full of pain and punishment.

    Eeeks!

    #1778039

    It’s brought down in many places, midrashim, zohar, Heichalos. The Ramban in Shaar Hagmul discusses it more in length, but obviously we’re not talking about any physical pain or turture, since your body is laying in the ground and doesnt feel any pain, it’s torture to the persons soul, which if anything is much worse but it’s hard for the human mind to grasp the severity of this “Spiritual Torture”, being that we have never felt spiritual pain and only comprehend what we have in our world and thats only physical pain…

    #1778070

    munkatch
    Participant

    专讗砖讬转 讞讻诪讛, 砖注专 讛讬专讗讛 驻专拽 讬讙 ‘ 诪住讻转 讙讬讛谞诐.
    Plenty to read with many details.

    #1778038

    philosopher
    Participant

    I don’t understand your post. If only the top most sinful people are tortured then why is Gehinnim full of pain and punishment? It should only be partly full of pain and punishment if it’s only in the top tie?

    And why is cleansing of the soul in gehenim a fabrication? I would assume, without basing my thoughts/feelings on sources but what on what I’ve been taught, that punishment in gehenim is individual. Some people need cleansing of sin and are afterwards get into gan Eden while some mass murderers like Hitler y”s and Stalin y”s are there forever.

    #1778081

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    What do you do that the neshomo is not responsible because it needs the guf to do the aveira, so they get punished together?

    #1778093

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Because of the above question we can conclude that the gehenim is not always a punishment but a cleansing process.

    #1778132

    Mushkythefamous
    Participant

    Not the Chabad way of looking at things

    #1778148

    philosopher
    Participant

    Mushky, What is the Chabad way of looking at things?

    #1778130

    philosopher
    Participant

    Laskern, I would assume, that for some neshomos it’s a cleansing process and for mass murderers it’s an everlasting punishment. I don’t think Hitler y”s and those responsible the Crusades or Inquisition can ever be cleansed. Also if I remember correctly, people who b’davka cause others to sin can never be cleansed of their sins.

    #1778222

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Philosopher, what you say is correct, for the wicked is 讬讜专讚讬诐 讜讗讬谉 注讜诇讬诐, they are thrown in and not taken out, but for others, it is a temporary cleansihg process.

    #1778301

    For up to 11 months

    #1778276

    mdd1
    Participant

    Raboysai, what in the world are you talking about? If you want to view Gehenom as a cleansing process, it is not like taking a shower! It is full of tremendous pain. And the reason for that is that Gehenom is always a punishment. Just it is that better people get punished and then ascend to receive their reward. I know nowadays people don鈥檛 like to hear about punishment, but the truth must be said.

    #1778329

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    mdd1, Is the guf also punished for doing the aveira?

    #1778328

    philosopher
    Participant

    Really now, I thought cleansing in gehenim means taking a shower! Boy was I mistaken!

    #1778335

    mdd1
    Participant

    Laskern, yes – hibut ha鈥檏ever.
    Philosopher, from the question posed at the beginning, one may conclude that some people have misconceptions about it.

    #1778338

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Philosopher, the idea of “cleansing” doesn’t sound so terrible.

    In today’s context, “cleansing,” to me, is a process that I associate with beautification tasks, such as losing weight, cleaning the pores in my face, and rinsing the oils from my hair. I had pictured my soul having to go through a spiritual car wash of sorts, unpleasant, yet necessary, but in no means horrendous and painful.

    #1778341

    CS
    Participant

    Philosopher the Chabad way of looking at things is that it is a cleansing process done out of Hashems great love for us. It is painful and experienced as a punishment, but it’s a means to get cleansed to enter gan Eden

    #1778349

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    mdd1, In EY there is no chibut hakever, so he could commit great aveirus in EY and only the neshomo will suffer disagreeing with the gemora that it with the guf are punished together.

    #1778374

    Congrats CS on your name change

    #1778363

    philosopher
    Participant

    CS, we all believe Hashem created everything for our good so going through Gehenim as a purification for our souls must be good for us as well. Although I hope to do teshuva so I wouldn’t end up in Gehenim at all…

    #1778362

    philosopher
    Participant

    Ok, perhaps purification is a better descriptive word than cleansing.

    #1778415

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Idea that gehenom is “Hot” comes from Milton and christianity

    #1778442

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Please clarify something for me. I was under the impression, possibly mistaken, that gehinnom is for Jewish neshomas. The Gan Eden that Yidden go to is different than where the non-Jews go. The necessity to purify the neshoma of a non-Jew, particularly one who did horrible things to the Jews, like Hitler, ym”sh, is totally not clear to me. He is not going to Gan Eden or anywhere close to that, so where does he go?

    #1778443

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says the gehenom is 60 times as hot as our fire.

    #1778450

    philosopher
    Participant

    Nechama, non-Jews go to Gan Eden too. (Non-Jews can be tzaddikim too, Adam and Noach for example were tzaddikim.) The reshuim whose souls cannot be purified go to to the shaul tachtes, the netherworld.

    #1778469

    Joseph
    Participant

    Non-Jews like Hitler remain in gehenim forever. He is still burning a horrendous hell every split second over and over again.

    #1778493

    mdd1
    Participant

    CS, if it is done out of great love, why cannot the painful aspect be skipped?

    #1778492

    sam4321
    Participant

    Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky brought an idea from Rav Simcha Zisel of Kelm who said that there is a machlokes rishonim between the Rambam and the Ramban concerning what is geheniom. The Rambam said like this and the Ramban said like this. However ,we have no understanding of both of their words,but there is a tzad hashava shbenheim – es iz nisht gut( that it is not good).

    #1778529

    devny
    Participant

    Yeah, let’s all chime in on what gehenim really is, cuz we really know… HAHAHAHA

    A) We don’t know.
    B) Stop believing every little thing you hear in a random shiur.

    #1778574

    CS
    Participant

    CA thank you

    Philosopher: great so we’re in agreement. I also hope not to end up there.

    Mdd1: because when you really love your child you will discipline them as necessary out of your great love. Or to use the mashal, you clean your child’s filthy diaper even though they kick and scream because you love them. If you didn’t love them so much you’d let them sit in it. Similarly Hashem cleans us up from the aveira mess we made so that we can disassociate from the bad and just be left with the good you accomplished forever.

    #1778576

    CS
    Participant

    Litebrite you mentioned losing weight which reminds me of a good mashal I heard on the topic of gehennom: people do workouts in the gym which are difficult but rewarding. However the same gym routine can be experienced as torture if it was forced by gunpoint. What’s the difference? By the former you know what you are doing, the purpose it serves and how long it will take. By the latter you don’t know the purpose, or it is done just to cause pain, and you don’t know when it will be over. So too gehennom is experienced as a punishment because you don’t see the meaning behind it but in reality it is a cleansing process for the neshama.

    #1778638

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The mishna says the best of the doctors belong in the gehinom because they don’t ask advice. They say as a joke that we need good doctors for the gehinom.

    #1778644

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, we say on Yom Kippur viduy, we are full of sin and You are full of mercy. Hashem is like the mother, who cleans the baby from the filthy diaper, purifying us from sin.

    #1778682

    mdd1
    Participant

    CS, you compare disciplining and cleaning with Gehenom? Are you serious? Gehenom is terribly, terribly painful. And it is so, because it is a punishment. Again, if it is done out of pure love, let Ha鈥橲Hem do it painlessly鈥 nobody is stopping Him.

    #1778688

    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Again, if it is done out of pure love, let Ha鈥橲Hem do it painlessly鈥 nobody is stopping Him.”

    what are you trying to say here? Are you arguing that it is for a purpose, or are you arguing that it is out of love?

    I don’t know what the gemara says about gihenom so I won’t start voicing opinions, but in regard to something being both out of love and horribly painful, that is not a stira. You say nobody is stopping Him. Exactly. Since this is the way Hashem chose to make the process, this is what is in our best interest.

    Please explain what you are saying, I would like to understand your point.

    #1778693

    mdd1
    Participant

    My point is that administering justice is a purpose also. Ha鈥橲Hem has a hanhogah of Judgement also, not only of Kindness. He can set whatever rules he wants. If it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!
    P.S.: and those who burn forever, according to you, what is the purpose and where is the love?

    #1778692

    Haimy
    Participant

    The Ramban in his introduction to Iyov tell us that one moment in Gehinom is more painful than all the tzoros of Iyov (quoted by the Chafetz Chaim in one of his seforim).

    R’ Levy Yitzchak of berditzev is purported to have said that he’s not afraid of Gehinom because if if it’s rotzon Hashem for him to be there then there’s no better Gan Eden he could experience than fulfilling Hashem’s rotzon.

    #1778697

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Haimy, now we can understand the brocho of the women 砖注砖谞讬 讻专爪讜谞讜 with there existence to serve their husband they fullfil the will of Hashem.

    #1778700

    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    …and you liken that to gihenom?

    馃檪

    #1778704

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    A woman being with an abusive husband is gehenom.

    #1778705

    philosopher
    Participant

    laskern, if that is what the bracha means, please explain why women have no obligation to marry. If women’s existence is to serve their husbands it would be a woman’s obligation to marry, not her choice. Also please explain why unmarried women, widowed, divorced and spinsters say this bracha as well.

    #1778710

    philosopher
    Participant

    laskern, I’ll answer for you, a woman is a giver, that is the purpose of womens existence. Whether it’s for one’s husband, children or for others. That is different than women being here to serve only their husbands.

    #1778740

    Mdd,

    Are you saying that Hashem doesn鈥檛 鈥渓ove鈥 all his creations?

    鈥淚f it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!鈥

    So if you love someone you wouldn鈥檛 hurt them even if they would survive? (Like a doctor)

    Good 砖讘转 everybody

    #1778782

    mdd1
    Participant

    Coffee addict, no, He does not. He doesn鈥檛 love Hitler. He doesn鈥檛 love Yerovam ben Navat. He hates reshoim.
    Again, Gehenom is not just hurting somebody 鈥 it it tremendous suffering. Plus, He established all the rules. Why did not He establish just cleansing people without inflicting pain on them?

    #1778811

    philosopher
    Participant

    mdd1, why do people go through trials and suffering in this life too? Maybe Hashem should’ve made a pain-free existence for all living creatures? We can grow from suffering and become better people, that’s why. Having a pain-free existence means would mean that we would stay stagnent and never grow spiritually. Same in the spiritual dimension, the neshoma goes through Gehenim to become a stronger and better spiritual being to be able to enter Gan Eden.

    … Actually that’s my guess about Gehenim. It is probably only part of the real reason ( reality can have many aspects or truths to it, not only one) or not the real reason at all. Only Hashem has all the answers to the mysteries of creations.

    #1778854

    Mdd1,

    诪注砖讬 讬讚讬 讟讘注讬诐 讘讬诐 讜讗转诐 讗讜诪专讬诐 砖讬专讛?

    The 诪爪专讬诐 were bad people

    #1778855

    Disclaimer:

    Hashem doesn鈥檛 have 鈥渇eelings鈥 feelings are only for those that are bound by time (which Hashem isn鈥檛) when we talk about feelings it鈥檚 only in the context of how we understand Hashem

    #1778856

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    CS, thank you 馃檪馃檪馃檪

    #1778857

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Philosopher, every single rabbi and rebbetzin that I have ever met and/or heard in a lecture says that women are receivers and MEN are givers.

    #1778959

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    coffee adict, the Sefer Hachinuch says that whoever prays to Hashem, have mercy on me like you have mercy on the bird, we quite him down because he makes Hashem’s commandments humanly with feelings. If this was the case, shechita would not be allowed.

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