Going t Kever Rochel – “Mama Rochel helf mir”

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  • #1704995

    In the past, I amd many others have gove to Kever Rochel to ask Mama Rochel to help get a yeshua. Also, Kever Yonosson ben Uziel for a bakasha for shidduchim. Reading the threads about how terrible it is to ask “Rebbe helf mir” – I guess I better stop because one must only ask Hashem for help. Is asking Mama Rochel bad?

    #1705073

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Yes, it is bad.

    #1705083

    We gotta stop these mass krfira movements! These kivrei tzaddikim is a huge michshol! I even heard Reb Chaim K shlita went to Rashbi’s kever in Meron! Oy vey!

    #1705086

    Joseph
    Participant

    I think the Coffee Room has become the Chabad Room.

    #1705114

    Kivrei Tzaddikim – no matter if recent or ancient, are a bad thing because people ask the tzaddik to daven for a yeshuah. Terrible.

    #1705120

    places
    Participant

    we ask hashem in the person’s zechus

    #1705144

    Joseph – “I think the Coffee Room has become the Chabad Room.” When did Mama Rochel join Chabad?! (I thought she was Sefardi).

    #1705156

    places – “we ask hashem in the person’s zechus”, so why at their kever?!

    and also the entire scene of visiting living gedolim for a brocha – making an intermediary! Daven direct to Hashem!!!

    #1705168

    places – isn’t the purpose of kever Rochel specifically located for Yidden on their way to golus to pass by her kever and ask Mama Rochel to help us?! Kol B’rama nishma…Rochel me’vaka al boneha…oh my gosh: an intermediary!!

    #1705172

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Rebbetzin, are you chas v’shalom suggesting that tzaddikim be cremated or something like that? How do you propose we avoid having kivrei tzaddikim?

    #1705186

    RY – How do you propose we avoid having kivrei tzaddikim?

    Simply place an issur on visiting the kevorim. A takona or kol koray. We can also build walls around them to keep people out. But most important – to educate people not to as Mama Rochel helf mir! It is assur according to some opinions in the coffee room.

    #1705188

    RY – the Mitzrim hid Yossef’s aron in mitzrayim (vyisem b’aron b’mitzrayim – and we all cheer – because it is a good thing – chazak chazak v’nizchazek). We need to hide all kivrei tzaddikim! Avoid these intermediary kefira activities! Ais la’asos l’Hashem!

    #1705396

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is nothing wrong to ask the tzadikim to intercede as we find by Kolev Bamidbar (13,22). Similarly, the Rebbe is a conduit as the Kohaniim by Birchas Kohanim.

    #1705449

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, the Gesher haChaim brings down that everyone agrees that asking the dead to do something themselves is avoda zara. Asking them to intercede with Hashem is a dispute. In any case, as Yiddish was not yet invented it would seem that Rachel does not understand it.

    #1705459

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Whatever you think about davening and seeking a yeshua from some tzadik/tzadekess at their kever or whether its mamash new age apikorsus,, at least show some kavod for their names. Calling it “Mama Rochel’s” makes it sound more like an Italian Restaurant than a makom kadosh.

    #1705462

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avi K, it is a common practice to say to be a melitz yosher.

    #1705583

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Avi K, it is a common practice to say to be a melitz yosher.

    There are two possible ways to look at this without having to resort to “doresh el hamesim” issues:

    1. We are asking HKBH that so and so should be a melitz yosher. In other words, we’re not directly asking the dead to do anything for us – we’re asking HKBH to cause them to intercede and pray for us.

    2. We’re not praying to the dead to be a melitz yosher, we’re just hoping that they are — much as I may express hope that the weather is good tomorrow without actually asking KHBH to make the weather fine tomorrow.

    The Wolf

    #1705573

    Gadolhador ” Calling it “Mama Rochel’s” makes it sound more like an Italian Restaurant than a makom kadosh.” Mama Rochel is the dialect form of Rochel Imeinu. Now, “Imeinu” does sound a bit like a Moslem Iman…we need to ban the name! It is disrespectful!

    #1705625

    to be a melitz yosher – why at the kever? If the request is from HKBH, anywhere He is , He is accessible! But if the request is from the niftar, then going to his kever makes sense (just as if asking him mechila at his kever).

    #1705664

    SamSaposhnik
    Participant

    Look in Kitzur Shu”a halochos of Erev R”H.
    There are 2 points in going to Kever Tzaddikim.
    A) To ask Hashem in that holy place.
    B) To ask the Tzaddik to Daven for you.

    #1705658

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rebbitzen, in SA O”CH (681,4) mentions a custom to go to the grave of tzadikim Erev Rosh Hashanah. The reason is indicated by the MB is that the place has holiness where tzadikim are burried and the tefilos are listened to easier without interference. This might answer your question about asking them to intercede to be a melitz yosher at the their grave site.

    #1705699

    Going to a kever (like kever Rochel) and asking the t zaddik to help you – to davening for you…sounds soooo LUBAVITCH. Why do WE do such Lubavitcher things?!

    #1705709

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Oh wow, what a shock! I never would have guessed that you were trying to draw that parallel . What other gymnastic tricks do you perform?
    [Eye roll]

    #1705741

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    have you seen the passuk in tehillim 16:3 לִקְדוֹשִׁים אֲשֶׁר־בָּאָ֣רֶץ הֵ֑מָּה וְ֜אַדִּירֵ֗י כָּל־חֶפְצִי־בָֽם:

    #1705725

    Seems we do lots of things that Lubavitch does. Like we started hanging pictures of gedolim on our walls (unheard of 30-40 years ago)! We do kiruv (unheard of 40 years ago)! We ask advice of Gedolim for medical, business, life idesicions (unheard of 40 years ago)! And we go to kevorim and leave notes…have we adopted the ways of Lubavitch?!

    I remember complaining about these things and knocking these ways! (Pictures of a Rebbe – mamash Avoda Zara!) But now WE non-Lubavitchers do the EXACT same things!

    Kevorim is a serious problem!

    How do we deal with it?

    #1705726

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Obviously, Rebbetzin is reacting to the anti-Lubavitch endless nauseating overload. Meanwhile, they don’t hang people in effigy, don’t harass opponents, treat all Jews equally in the 770 shul having davened there many, many times , help Jewish travellers when out of town. I personally know families who have become frum due to their outreach and are NOT meshichists at all.
    No, I’m not Chabad, certainly not a meshichist, and have great respect for the late Rebbe .
    Is some of you have issues with them, then just don’t follow them, just follow your own rav.. Leave them alone already and stop with the reyos, pshetlach and toirah’lach against.

    #1705740

    Yaapchik
    Participant

    It’s a shame Kaleiv ben Yifuneh didn’t know this when he went to Kivrei Ha’avos while the Meraglim went further around C’naan. It’s also a shame Yehoshua didn’t know this when he reqarded Kaleiv with Chevron.
    It’s also a shame Yosef Hatzadik didn’t know this when davened at his mother’s kever as the Yishmaeilim were taking him to Mitzrayim.
    More recently it’s a shame Reb Chaim Shmulevitz declared, “Dyne Chaimke zogt, Folgt Nit! Noor Vain Mamma Vain.”
    If only they had read this chat they would have all known better!

    #1705814

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    A person should not need a middleman (Rebbe or rav etc…) to turn to for help when he needs help from Hashem. He should go Directly to Hashem and ask for whatever he lacks. Hashem is waiting 24-7 to help/answer his loving children for whatever they need. All we need to do is call out to Hashem v’dorshei Hashem…. (tehillim 34:10) for one that seeks out Hashem lacks nothing that is good (versus seeking out others)

    Make yourself a daily learning Seder of Chovos Halevavos and transfer all your life problems directly to Hashem to solve for you.

    #1705867

    Sam Klien – “A person should not need a middleman (Rebbe or rav etc…) to turn to for help when he needs help from Hashem. He should go Directly to Hashem and ask for whatever he lacks. ”

    You should share your wisdom with Rav Chaim Kanievsky who has long lines of people asking him for brachos and yeshuos. He needs to simply tell them to go and “Make yourself a daily learning Seder of Chovos Halevavos and transfer all your life problems directly to Hashem to solve for you.”

    I guess you know better.

    #1706647

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    This is an old machlokes. The Rema paskens you don’t ask the dead person to do anything for you, and the gemera in Sota (34?) about Kaleiv asking the avos to pray for him is agaddateda.
    The Pri Megadim defends it and says it’s not a violation of the 5th ikkar because they are asking him to intercede with Hashem. The dead person isn’t all-powerful and isn’t Hashem in a human body.

    The rebbe’s atzmus sicha said you can directly daven to a rebbe because he’s Hashem in a human body. That is NOT what the pri megadim said. That is the person in the kever as a god.
    Major difference.
    Though litvaks hold like the Rema and do neither. We see how innocent practices become avoda zara r”l

    #1706736

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Rebbetzin Goldenpickanicerscreenname,

    “Going to a kever (like kever Rochel) and asking the t zaddik to help you – to davening for you…sounds soooo LUBAVITCH.”

    Whether intentionally or not, you are blurring the line between permitted and forbidden, which is a dangerous thing to do. To pray to a person is absolutely forbidden according to all opinions. And I think most opinions hold that to directly ask a dead person to pray to Hashem on one’s behalf is also forbidden. Instead, one should pray to Hashem for mercy in the merit of the person buried there. Why then go to the kever? Because 1) there is an increased level of kedusha there, 2) it builds a more tangible connection between you and the person buried there, and 3) more generally, visiting kevarim reminds a person of his mortality, which can help spur teshuva.

    As for seeking the help of a living tzaddik – there is no issur to ask someone living to daven on one’s behalf, or to seek a psak, bracha or advice. This is not setting up an intermediary. You still go to mincha after seeing the tzaddik and daven, and perform your own mitzvos. If, however, one CV”S start praying to the tzaddik, or thinks that it is he who has the power to help, that’s a dangerous error.

    #1706719

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Asking a living person to pray for you is different because the person is alive.

    #1707574

    Avram and Reb Yid, clearly you disagree with the statement made by Sam Klien – “A person should not need a middleman (Rebbe or rav etc…) to turn to for help when he needs help from Hashem. He should go Directly to Hashem and ask for whatever he lacks. ”

    Your position is that it’s ok to ask a LIVING person for help to daven on your behalf.

    Lerntmin goes further “The Pri Megadim defends it (Kolev asking the dead for help) and says it’s not a violation of the 5th ikkar because they are asking him to intercede with Hashem. The dead person isn’t all-powerful and isn’t Hashem in a human body.”

    Seems the position of the Pri Megadim is that it IS ok to turn to the dead for help to daven on our behalf (as Kalev did).

    Yet many are against the chassidic way of asking the Rebbe for a brocha when a yeshuah is needed, claiming as Sam Klien did (and I heard this often), why go to others, you can daven directly to Hashem yourself?!

    Lately, we of the Litvish world have begun treating our Gedolim as Rebbes and asking them for brochas and yeshuos. We adopted the chassidic ways!

    Do you not see the confusion here???

    To me, this is the blurring of the lines.

    #1707826

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,

    “clearly you disagree with the statement made by Sam Klien – “A person should not need a middleman (Rebbe or rav etc…) to turn to for help when he needs help from Hashem. He should go Directly to Hashem and ask for whatever he lacks. ””

    It depends on what he means by middleman. If a person CV”S thinks “I cannot relate directly to Hashem, so I will have this rebbe relate to Him for me…”, then I agree 100% with what Sam Klein said. If, however, he means that one should not consult a rav or rebbe for help in his own avodas Hashem, then I disagree 100%.

    “Your position is that it’s ok to ask a LIVING person for help to daven on your behalf.”

    I think that position is universal.

    “Seems the position of the Pri Megadim is that it IS ok to turn to the dead for help to daven on our behalf (as Kalev did).”

    Yes – but that issue is whether asking the dead to daven for you is a violation of the issur to consult the dead or not, which isn’t really what’s being debated on the Chabad threads regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe (some don’t even think he’s dead!). That issue that is whether Chabad’s relationship to its rebbe violates the issur of having gods other than Hashem.

    “Yet many are against the chassidic way of asking the Rebbe for a brocha when a yeshuah is needed, claiming as Sam Klien did (and I heard this often), why go to others, you can daven directly to Hashem yourself?!”

    Because perhaps they are seeing it as my first interpretation of “middleman.”

    “Lately, we of the Litvish world have begun treating our Gedolim as Rebbes and asking them for brochas and yeshuos. We adopted the chassidic ways!”

    I don’t think this is accurate.

    #1707853

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    This is ok:

    You —————> Hashem

    Another —————> Hashem

    This, however, is not ok:

    You —————> Another —————> Hashem

    #1707851

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Rebbetzin G.

    How do you think Hashem feels when he sees his beloved children and nation klal Yisroel turning to others for help when they clearly know that they can go directly to Hashem for any help (from shidduchim to parnassa to children etc….) and have no need for the middleman?

    Hashem loves us and is waiting 24-7 to help us but we need to show our faith and trust in Hashem alone and no one else.

    Start working on it by making a daily learning Seder of Chovos Halevavos (duties of the heart)

    How fortunate and grateful I am to Hashem for being blessed to be such a happy person, cause my entire life 24-7 is dependent on Hashem alone, not on doctors, bosses, medicines etc… For help, Hashem alone is the only one WHO WE CAN REALLY TURN TO FOR IMMEDIATE GUARANTEED HELP. so why would a person turn to anyone else?

    Let Hashem know how you can answer this question back to Hashem. Ask yourself before replying

    #1707869

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    What do you mean by a middleman? If you mean someone whom you are using as your connection, that is different from simply asking more people to pray for you.

    #1708607

    I think Sam Klien made clear that he is AGAINST middlemen and used the following examples:
    “dependent on Hashem alone, not on doctors, bosses, medicines etc…”

    So going to a doctor for health (which BTW the Torah says “v’rapo yerapeh” – see Rashi that reshus was given to go to a doctor), getting medicine, asking a boss for a raise – THESE are all “middlemen” which he is AGAINST, just as he is against going to a tzaddik or rebbe (in a similar capacity of “middlemen”).

    He is implying (or even saying explicitly) that going to a doctor, buying medicine or accepting help from another person is a lack of emunah!

    According to him, when I help a poor person with tzedakah, I am derailing his emunah. I should tell the poor to learn Shaar Habitochon.

    Apparently, he is also against making a hishtadlus or a keli (by going to a shadchan or getting a job).

    And that is NOT OKAY!

    #1708699

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,

    “I think Sam Klien made clear that he is AGAINST middlemen and used the following examples:”

    Sam Klein is a known troll who writes as if he fancies himself on the level with Yosef Hatzaddik, for whom it was an aveira to ask the sar hamashkim to put in a good word for him with paroh, whereas for us it would be a normal and even required part of our histaldus. Despite the fact that he is likely mocking the concept of emunah CV”S, what he wrote is technically not inconsistent with histaldus. If you, for example, go to a doctor for medical treatment but maintain an awareness that the success of the treatment comes from Hashem, then the doctor is not a middleman between you and Hashem.

    #1708715

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    For Yosef Hatzaddik on his high level of kedusha and closeness with Hashem etc…. To ask the sar Hamashkim to put a good word…. Was a lack of faith (maybe not on our level, but on his high level) and we all know that’s why he was punished with 2 more years of prison. Don’t fool yourself it’s written straight in the Torah….

    Sure we all need to do our hishtadlus… Take our medicine or visit a doctor C”V when necessary but to “DEPEND” on the doctor or Rebbe for help-versus just going for advice on health, torah, halacha or parnassa etc….-is going to far. Hashem should be the only one we should be truly dependant on. Our other partners from our spouse to our business partner or boss etc… Are just middlemen and direct messengers from Hashem to help or guide us but the help is really all coming from Hashem and we need to thank Hashem for everything.

    #1709854

    Sam Klien – you are playing with the word “dependent” on others besides Hashem. Hashem gives us life, yet you “depend” on your food to live. Would you die without food? It is a true statement that the food gives you life…It is a true statement that Hashem gives you life. But the two dependencies are not identical.

    We go to a doctor not just for “advice” (as you write) but to heal us. Yes, it is a true statement that the doctor does heal and it is a true statement that Hashem is the healer of all flesh. We depend on the doctor. We depend on Hashem, and the two dependencies are not identical.

    We go to a Tzaddik. We depend on him. And we depend on Hashem. How can we “depend” on a Tzadik? The same way we can depend on food to sustain us and a doctor to heal us – which does not diminish our dependence on Hashem for life and healing.

    #1709869

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,

    “Sam Klien – you are playing with the word “dependent” on others besides Hashem. Hashem gives us life, yet you “depend” on your food to live. Would you die without food?”

    After two days you serve up this nice softball to Sam Klein? Had Bnei Yisroel not complained about the lack of food and water in the midbar, they would have had no need to eat or drink. We see this by the fact that they never complained about their clothing, and their garments never wore out in 40 years. כִּי לֹא עַל-הַלֶּחֶם לְבַדּוֹ יִחְיֶה הָאָדָם–כִּי עַל-כָּל-מוֹצָא פִי-ה’, יִחְיֶה הָאָדָם

    Also, I think Sam Klein or an alias of his has stated in the past that he fasts each and every single day because of our terrible, terrible generation of which he’s ashamed to be a part, yet he continues to post on the CR.

    “But the two dependencies are not identical.”

    Exactly. But it is precisely the blurring of the lines between these two “types” of dependency that have caused consternation with some elements of Chabad. And your whole purpose in this troll thread is to willfully obfuscate this issue.

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