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How important is it to be smart? Would you prefer to be or marry someone smart, or someone good looking, or aidel? For example, how long a nose, or bald a head, or droopy a belly would you be willing to concede to in exchange for 10 IQ points?
Very. Zombies can’t live without them.
It depends on your intelligence.
Not very. I used to have one before I joined this site, but then I got rid of it, and don’t miss it at all.
I’m grateful I am relatively intellectual, but I’m working on improving appearance and health through diet and exercise. Hence the dearth of recipes lately.
Middos are most important, but of course I also value intelligence.
Most Sephardim aren’t particularly intellectually-inclined. The Syrian community in NY, for example, hasn’t produced many talmidei hakhamim or doctors or lawyers (although this may be changing with the newer generation). Business and making money, rather than pursuing emet, chochma, and maddah, is their typical raison d’etre. While historically, our tradition was a rationalistic one, most Mizrahim nowadays are into vernacular religious devotions and superstitious practices. Some of Hannah Arendt’s observations on this are entirely factual, unfortunately.
I’d be the first to say that the Judaism of the Rambam, Grace Aguilar, Rav Uziel, R’ Sabato Morais, Rav HD Halevi, R’ Hazzan, Hakham Faur, Rav Kapach, Jacques Lyons, and other luminaries of the Classical Sephardic tradition is very different from the Judaism of Shas, R’ Amnon Yitzhak, Deal, Avenue T, and hamsas.
Rebdoniel is racist. He probably thinks blacks have a lower IQ than whites.
I know plenty of Sephardic girls and Ashkenazic girls in an educational setting. I have not noticed any intellectual differences.
Plus, I myself have Sephardic blood. So there.
How important is it to be smart? Would you prefer to be or marry someone smart, or someone good looking, or aidel?
Yes.
For example, how long a nose, or bald a head, or droopy a belly would you be willing to concede to in exchange for 10 IQ points?
No.
Torah: He’s not racist per se. He just hates the Syrians because they don’t like Geirim. Then again, he also equates Apikorsim with real Rabbonim so I don’t know why he’s worth commenting on. Or why he’s even allowed on this site.
Torah: Sorry to burst your bubbly, but there are studies that show that Ashkenazic people have an average IQ 15 points higher than others.
Torah: He’s not racist per se. He just hates the Syrians because they don’t like Geirim. Then again, he also equates Apikorsim with real Rabbonim so I don’t know why he’s worth commenting on. Or why he’s even allowed on this site.
Makes sense.
Ender: Let’s see if those differences still exist after several generations with access to plumbing, nutrition, and education.
Chassidim don’t win Nobel prizes, despite being Ashkenazim; it’s all nonreligious former Litvaks/yekkes/yeshivish. Let’s do studies and show that Litvak/Yeshivish/yekkish intelligence is higher than Chassidish intelligence. (Hint: Due to cultural boundary setting in the Chassidish community, the kids will probably do more poorly on IQ tests than yeshivish kids.)
Ender, you’re assuming that IQ is an accurate measure of intelligence.
Torah613 – Blacks have a lower average IQ than whites. This is a measured fact. As to whether IQ measures intelligence completely and accurately, that is up for debate. If IQ was intrinsically valuable (it isn’t — people should be judged by their choices), and the data wasn’t so irrefutable, you might have a slight claim toward racism. There is also a strong correlation between IQ and wealth. Black people are less wealthy on average. There can be many explanations as to why this possibly arbitrary measurement favors ashkenazim over sephardim over caucasians over blacks on average. Facts are never racist, though.
Torah: While there is no actual proof, most people believe the result of this study is due to hundreds of years of intense intellectual development. While plumbing can definitely help Sephardim in many areas, I am not sure it will close the gap.
As far as Yeshiva students go. Another study has shown the average verbal IQ of ashkenazic yeshiva students is over 125, about 30 points higher than average. This is even higher than their secular counterparts.
Yehuda: Yes I do. There are many forms of IQ tests and as a whole they provide the best measure of intelligence.
Veltz:
I see. So the question in this thread is: How pretty does a Sephardic girl have to be, to make up for having an average IQ 10 points less?
lol
I used to be open minded but my brain kept falling out!
What does brains mean?
“It is up for debate, but it’s a tautological question. It measures what it says it measures. You can (and IMO, should) define intelligence more broadly than what IQ tests measure, but that would not be the test/results we are discussing.”
Veltz, you are right that it is tautological but the tautology should be expressed as follows: IQ tests measure how well people do on IQ tests.
It is not so much that intelligence is broader that what IQ tests test, it is that it is unclear whether the IQ test has any relationship with intelligence at all. It is also not clear that “general intelligence” even exists (as opposed to specific skills in specific areas).
I think that intelligence is very important, but I wouldn’t trade anything for additional IQ points because IQ points are valueless (and inane).
Ender, India has a dearth of plumbing, but there are lots of very smart Indians. Which proves nothing, just like IQ.
Judge Judy says, “Beauty comes and comes and goes, but stupid is forever.”
Torah613, you may be acquainted with an individual Sephardic girl who is more intelligent than an Ashkenazic girl; however, in an educational setting you will find that the Ashkenazic students as a whole will score higher on tests and perform better in oral presentations as well. This does not mean that you cannot find a brilliant Sephardic student.
Some studies seem to show certain genetic indicators for higher intelligence to be passed down from the mother’s side. Interesting in light of the fact that young men looking for a bride are cautioned to check out the mother’s brothers. There will always be those who prefer beauty to brains though, and they still stand a good chance of having a happy home and well-adjusted offspring.
Veltz,
It is not that I don’t think “intelligence” has a definition. I am uncertain as to whether there is such a thing as “general intelligence” but I think that when people say “X is an intelligent person” they do mean something (even if that thing is a “bundle of sticks”).
I don’t think IQ tests any aptitude other than the aptitude to take IQ tests. That aptitude is correlated with success in other areas but the correlation is far from perfect. There are people with high IQs who are a failures or average in those areas and there are people who excel in those areas without very high IQs.
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Nitpicker – that is true. I am glad that you are beginning to understand the question, although I am somewhat perturbed that you don’t like it. If you want to start a topic about how important it is to be tall, you can do that
“
Actually I guess I didn’t understand the question.
Even though you mentioned it as an example, I didn’t realize you
meant how important are brains in a shidduch. Some other posters seem to have gotten it some not. If I had realized your meaning I wouldn’t have posted what I did.
Yehuda: I agree, plumbing won’t help intelligence. I was just addressing something Torah mentioned.
benignuman: What do property rights have to do with intelligence?
As someone with family in that community, and as someone who is very familiar with the dynamics of that community, I know what I’m talking about. I’d venture to say that most posters here are Ashkenazim who lack any deep familiarity with the SY community.
The point I was making was a cultural and sociological one. The Syrians simply do not prioritize learning in the same way Ashkenazim do. Syrians are into family businesses, in most cases. All types of Ashkenazic Jews, secular to Haredi, emphasize learning, whether it be Gemara, or law school and PhD’s. Zev Chaffets emphasizes this in his NYT article on the Syrian Jews, and it is a point which is backed by nothing short of reality.
While there are scholars like R’ Hidary, R’ Shammah, H’ Faur, H’ Sassoon, R’ Abadie, etc. with postgraduate education, academic credentials, and rabbinical credentials, they are the exception, rather than the norm. In many cases, Syrian synagogues had to import Ashkenazic rabbis, due to the dearth of talmidei hakhamim produced by the community (just as Syrians use Ashkenanzic doctors and lawyers, due to the dearth of these professionals among their community). Anyone familiar with R’ Abraham Hecht, or R’ Zvulun Lieberman?
While classic Sephardic Judaism does include very intellectual, open-minded, and forward-thinking rabbis and leaders, this heritage is lost on the Syrian community of today. Anyone familiar with history would know that while AIU, for instance, was embraced by the hakhamim in Morocco, in Syria, there was much opposition to efforts to provide proper education, opposition to Zionism, and an overall retrograde agenda that was generally unseen elsewhere in the Sephardic world.
rebdoniel:
Re R’ Shammah
I have to ask are you referring to the one who founded the
Sephardic institute on Ave R in Brooklyn?
Or is this someone else?
Ender,
I was using it as a moshul for something we discuss as if it is one thing but upon closer examination it is actually many discrete things bunched together.
benignuman: I understood your original comment perfectly. I was just making a lawyer joke.
as an SY from the community i must say rebdoniel is completely off. yes in the past we needed to import rabbonim but now? in the past five to ten years there has been a huge push in prioritizing learning there are numerous programs for full time learners and hundreds of baalebatim learning every morning from as early as five o’clock am before they run off to work and many young people finishing up kollel are now returning and taking positions in the community. the reason why we don’t have so many doctors and lawyers is because syrians didn’t need to go run after these professions in order to make money they went into businesses and were very successful without the need for years of college and please don’t “poster boy” our community with this rabbis four was kicked out a long time ago, ask any competent person their thoughts on “r” shammah, and rabbi abadie has no bearing on the community except for his seemingly lenient passover list
There is a cadre of more black-hatted laymen in the Syrian community. There are those for whom figures like R’ Mansour and R’ Harari Raful are tremendous mashpi’im, and as such, they’ve adopted more Litvish manners and have thankfully, become kovea itim, albeit in a distinctly Ashkenazic model.
However, I don’t believe the rank-and-file are such lamdanim. Culturally, for Syrians, there simply is not the same emphasis on learning and cultivation of critical thinking faculties as among Ashkenazim. Men of the stature of R’ Uziel, R’ Nissim, R’ HaLevi, R’ Yosef, R’ Messas, R’ Hazzan, etc. haven’t generally been produced by the SY community.
R’ Abadi in Lakewood is a tremendous posek and talmid hakham. R’ Elie Abadie is rabbi of the Safra Synagogue in Manhattan, a product of RIETS, and a medical doctor. The Sephardic Institute has been fortunate to have the leadership of R’ Dr. Shammah (an expert in Tanakh) and R’ Dr. Hidary (who has now gone onto Shearith Israel, and is an academic of repute).
Ashkenasi Jews are 5 standard deviations above African Americans and 3 above the average anglosaxon. Call me rasist – I’m not- this is factual. Look it up.
“Plus, I myself have Sephardic blood. So there.
How important is it to be smart? Would you prefer to be or marry someone smart, or someone good looking, or aidel?
Yes.”
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
For more on IQ testing, read up on the Flynn Effect, which has basically proven that IQ scores have been rising EVERYWHERE in the world and among all races and nationalities for the past 100 years! That is why they keep having to modify IQ tests every so often, because they get too easy! A typical teenager today has an IQ of 100. If tested today, schoolchildren during the early 1900s would be considered mentally ill, with IQs in the 70s. It’s fascinating.
Regarding the Sefaradi community, I am sefaradi, I do not live in a sefaradi community, and I find RD’s comments to be quite offensive. The fact that Syrians, as immigrants, have done so well in business should be something to celebrate, not denigrate. If you want to see sefaradic learning, get in touch with the sefaradic semicha program at yu, or go to eretz yisrael and learn in yeshivat porat yosef or kisei rachamim.
MorahRach- I would only call you racist if based on these stats you said that white people “are smarter” than black people, or something similar about ashkenazim vs. sefaradim. IQ tests do not take poverty, education, or cultural opportunities into account. 70% of black kids are raised by one parent. 1 in 3 black men will go to jail at some point in their lives. How can anyone ignore these obvious social and economic handicaps and instead insist that blacks are innately less smart?? We need ALL kids to have access to good education, and opportunities to succeed, bimheirah b’yameinu, amen!
Note that I never said Syrians were dumb people or less intelligent than others. I did say that culturally, higher education isn’t valued the same way it is in other groups, since business and money making, rather than philosophizing, is their emphasis in life. I know many, many Sephardic hakhamim, and my approach is all based in Sephardic thought I acquired from my teachers.
I didn’t say IQ! My uncle , who is an actuary, for some reason has access to new data and case studies, and he showed me that stats because I find this sort of thing interesting. IQ testing does show that Caucasians have higher IQs than African Americans but that’s not what I was talking about.
MorahRach, you talk about standard deviations but you don’t say what you’re measuring. Sounds like a classic straw man argument.
I’m sorry, I am away with no computer access and my broken phone is very hard to type on. I am referring to scholastic aptitude and intelligence tests, as well as standardized reading, comprehension and vocabulary tests.
Yes, of course whites do better than blacks overall on vocal/reading/math tests. But it’s not because they are better overall, it’s because african american kids are more likely to live in poverty, in bad neighborhoods, and with only one parent. Does that not make sense that they would therefore do less well on tests?!
How about we put ashkenazi Jews in the ‘hood and see how they long they last with their high IQs. many black kids have to learn early on how to stay out of trouble and keep safe, as well knowing who is safe and who is dangerous. frum people don’t know from that all, baruch hashem.
rationalfrummie- actually, poverty isn’t the only factor. Most African-Americans are still descendents of slaves. Since strong, not-too-clever slaves were preferred by masters, it would make sense for the slave population over time to become taller, stronger, and stupider. Being as African-Americans have their DNA, it would make sense for it to take a few generations for the smart genes to dominate again.
Wouldn’t it be fair to say that getting out of the ‘hood is a symbol of higher intelligence? And just hanging around and wollowing in the filth, without making any effort to improve your lot, wouldn’t that be a sign of somewwhat lower intelligence?
As you can see from my handle, I’m a Midwesterner. In all three of the major Midwestern Jewish Frum communities, the frum lived in the ‘hood, were invaded by that element, and figured out how to rearrange their situation and not be impacted by it. Ask any Detroiter about Dexter, 12th Street, or Northwest. Ask a Clevelander about 105th Street, or a Chicagoan about Douglas Blvd-the West Side, South Shore, or Austin. We were there, the neighborhood tanked, so we moved and built a better neighborhood.
They, on the other hand, just live in it, and engage in the more and more of the behavior that causes it. Single parent home, gangster lifestyle, drug usage, dropping out of school . . . . So is the lower intelligence a result of those conditions, or possibly a cause?
To Gamanit: Did you know that in the 1930s and 40s, 14 percent of African American children were raised in single parent households? Now that number is around 72%. Apparently the effects of slavery remained latent for several generations before suddenly rearing their head after the wonderful Great Society programs kicked in.
I’m not a biologist, but I don’t think that is how DNA works. For one thing, there is no such thing as a “smart” gene. You cannot pass on being “stupid” genetically to your children, it’s impossible. Also, the African Masai tribe in Kenya and Tanzania has people that are very tall, and were tall thousands of years before Europeans came and took slaves.
Midwesterner, yes, the frum Jews you speak of were able to move and start new neighborhoods. To do that, you obviously need money- something poor blacks living in the inner city don’t have! Isn’t that obvious?
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