Inaccurate things we learned as kids

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  • #1222434

    Patur, you should be able to find a string of text

    unique to that page to post here, but you needn’t

    bother. Just tell me if any of them say “Nishtanu

    hat’va’im,” or state categorically that there are

    exactly 613 seeds in all healthy pomegranates.

    #1222435

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I found a string of text. The problem is that if when I posted the earlier string of text here, it somehow made google forget about the other page, then posting another unique string of text would also cause google to forget the other page. But they don’t call me Patur Aval Assur for no reason – I found a unique string of text and I reversed it and posted it here (and noted that you should reverse it), so that the other page would still be the only page on the internet with that unique string of text. But alas, the moderators did not approve the post.

    I haven’t yet seen anyone who claims that there was any change in nature. I also don’t think anyone specifically said that every pomegranate has 613 seeds. They mostly just said “pomegranate” or “the pomegranate”. Though I have seen several different versions. Some just say “it has 613 seeds”, some say “more than 613 seeds”, some say “seeds like the number 613”, some say “only 613 seeds”, and some say “many seeds”. Also, a few of them express varying degrees of skepticism.

    I don’t think any of them said what SaraCFL said, that it’s only one variety of pomegranate.

    #1222436

    SaraCFL
    Participant

    Patur Aval Assur, sorry about the late reply. My mother 🙂 and her brother counted the seeds and found it to be true. I have no idea which variety it is. Also many heirloom fruits and vegetables are cross bred now and aren’t true breeds, so it may not be true anymore.

    #1222437

    It says you should have as many zechuyos as a rimon. Don’t you get schar every time you do a mitzva? Hopefully you’re doing each mitzva more than once.

    #1222438

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    SaraCFL:

    No need to apologize. But can you clarify? Are you saying that your mother and brother counted one pomegranate and it had exactly 613 seeds? Are you saying that they counted many pomegranates and consistently found that they had exactly 613 seeds? I personally have counted several pomegranates and never found one with 613 seeds. Also, even within a specific variety, there are always different sizes. It does not seem particularly logical that there could be a variety in which every pomegranate has the same amount of seeds, because there isn’t any variety in which all the pomegranates are the same size. Now it could be that within one variety, all the pomegranates are somewhat similar and therefore there could be a variety in which the average pomegranate has 613 seeds, but as I pointed out to Sam2, there wouldn’t be any way to determine that. If you counted 1000 pomegranates and came up with an average of 613 seeds, you could just count one more pomegranate and the average could change to 614 seeds. Now it’s also possible that the rabbinic statements about pomegranate seeds, were not intending to be so precise; in other words they simply meant that there are around 613 seeds, perhaps say, as range of 550-650. It’s possible, but it would be severely limiting their statements to an approximation about one variety. And I still wouldn’t be sure if that could be, because it’s possible that even within a variety there is a big range of size. In the pomegranates I have counted, I have gotten some closer to 600 and some closer to 1000. Now I don’t know if they were all the same variety, so I am speculating somewhat.

    #1222439

    Lovelyme
    Member

    All those things were right!! What’s your point??

    #1222440

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I heard from my teacher that it is wrong to count the seeds of a pomegranate and that they do have exactly 613 seeds. But there is no reason to believe that they do. And I have counted and never found 613.

    #1222442

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Moderator 29, the “tale” which needs to be “looked into” is the one about the Chofetz Chaim, and (assuming that it did in fact happen) whether it truly means that it is Assur to speak LH about yourself. As noted above in this thread, I think the story proves that it is Muttar (even if, as was mentioned in the Disagree With The CC thread, it’s not a good idea). If it were really Assur, I have a hard time believing that this, alone among all of Hilchos Lashon Hara, would have slipped the attention of the CC.

    I would have posted this on that thread, but it was closed.

    #1222443

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “If it were really Assur, I have a hard time believing that this, alone among all of Hilchos Lashon Hara, would have slipped the attention of the CC.”

    Catch Yourself – +1. I was debating if I should point that out on another thread or not. Glad you did.

    #1222444

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I haven’t read through this thread, so I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but who amongst us has not learned at some point that mishloach manos must contain foods which have 2 different brachos??

    There is no truth to that. The Mishna Berurah states very clearly that the mishloach manos must contain two different types of food (and not two brachos) He even gives the example of two types of meat (which would obviously have the same beracha).

    #1222446

    catch yourself, I’m not exactly sure why you are addressing me with a clarification of my own point. I did not say it happened or didn’t happen, I was saying that if someone wants to bring out a halach of the Chofetz Chaim using a tone that would not have been approved of by the Chofetz Chaim, it loses it’s ‘stand alone’ validity and will need to be looked into.

    Whether or not it is in the safer is another issue.

    #1222447

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU

    “The Mishna Berurah states very clearly that the mishloach manos must contain two different types of food”

    Where does he state that “very clearly”?

    The Mechaber says “shtei Manos” ie two portions which presumably can be the same food I dont recall the M”B saying you need two different foods

    Though there are Acharonim that do say this (Aruch Hashulchan I believe) and some poskim make the case that it is obvious that the two portions have to be different. BUt where does the M”B say this at all, let alone “Very clearly”?

    thanks

    #1222448

    catch yourself
    Participant

    29:

    “The chofetz Chaim said you cannot speak l”h about yourself” – (Moderator’s Comment in the OP of the other thread; granted I don’t know which Mod)

    “Moderator :The chofetz Chaim said you cannot speak l”h about yourself

    Wrong.

    My 9th grade rebbi, who was born in 1934 and named after the chofetz Chaim,

    said the chofetz Chaim

    meant that with a touch of humour and as advice

    Dare to find it anywhere in his sefer” – (It Is Time For Truth)

    “I don’t know what works for you in real life, but if you have a halacha or Torah matter to teach me, I am all ears and thrilled to hear it. If you have to end it with a threat, I have to assume you haven’t read the Chofetz Chaim often enough to be relied upon.

    I will look into your tale.” – (Moderator 29)

    It certainly sounds to me that your point was that the established Halacha is that it is Assur to speak LH about yourself, but that you would look into IITFT’s “tale” to the contrary. All I was saying is that, in fact, it is the other way around.

    If I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying.

    Either way, I don’t think “Dare to find it in the Sefer” is a threat, or an offensive way of making a point. I actually think it’s pretty tame by the standard of typical Beis Medrash banter.

    #1222449

    You had misunderstood.

    I actually think it’s pretty tame by the standard of typical Beis Medrash banter.

    Which is exactly what men need to learn when they are speaking in mixed company

    #1222450

    Joseph
    Participant

    Perhaps women need to learn to accept the way things are spoken in the beis medrash.

    #1222451

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Rochel Imeinu told Lavan that she could not get off her camel when he came looking for the terafim because she was pregnant. (not exactly, but I guess a small child would not understand the real explanation)

    Mordechai was Esther’s uncle. (that one contradicts what is clearly written in the megila, “…bas avichayil dod mordechai” dod is referring to Avichayil, not mordechai). To be fair, I don’t remember a specific teacher actually saying this, but I remember it being “common knowledge”.

    #1222452

    catch yourself
    Participant

    re: Pomegranates

    The actual statement of the Gemara is that “????? ??? ????? ????? ?????,” which means, “The empty ones among you (K’lal Yisrael) are full of Mitzvos like a pomegranate [is full of seeds].”

    I always thought the clear implication is that a pomegranate, while full of seeds, falls short of 613.

    re: Mordechai and Esther

    I love The Purim (urim) Story (ory), but even they were a bit confused on this point. When Esther is about to be abducted by Sir Toe-Face, she calls to “Cousin Mordechai!” Only a few minutes later, in the song, she addresses, “Uncle Mordechai.” Later, when debating whether to go to Achashveirosh, she again sings to “Uncle of mine.”

    There is no source for the idea that Mordechai was Esther’s uncle (which would actually not preclude him from being her cousin as well).

    #1222453

    I always thought the clear implication is that a pomegranate, while full of seeds, falls short of 613.

    I don’t think so. All people, not only reikanim, must fall short of 613,

    as some mitzvos are exclusive to mutually exclusive groups.

    #1222454

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Of course, there is no one person for whom it is possible to perform all 613 Mitzvos. This question is classic Shabbos Derasha fodder, and has been dealt with by countless Meforshim. Whatever the specific answer, the general idea is that it is possible to be considered as having performed all Mitzvos (and even rewarded as such), including those which can not apply to you.

    In any case, you would make my point even stronger. If even the “Milayim” of K’lal Yisrael fall short of 613, there is no reason at all to infer that the pomegranate has that number of seeds.

    See next post for a completely different theory about the whole pomegranate-Mitzvos connection.

    By the way, Randomex: “Does anyone else remember being taught that Yosef’s dream was of bundles of wheat in a field, with all the bundles bowing to one bundle?”

    This is precisely how the dream is described in the Pesukim (plus the detail that it was Yosef and his brothers who were bundling the grain). I assume I must have misunderstood you.

    #1222455

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I once saw a really cool maamer explaining why B’nei Yisrael are compared to pomegranates. I don’t remember the whole thing and I don’t remember where I saw it, so I can’t look it up, unfortunately. If anyone here knows the source and can post it, I would very much appreciate it.

    It was something to do with the fact that pomegranates are unusual in that the seed is the fruit itself. This somehow had to do with the fact that all Yidden are inherently good even when we do aveiros.

    There was a lot more to it than that, and it put together a bunch of Aggadata’s to make the point, but I don’t remember it.

    If anyone knows what I’m talking about, please let me know. TIA!

    #1222456

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I was taught as a kid that everyone has worth. Today I know that to be a lie.

    The Wolf

    #1222457

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Everything does have worth. It’s not a lie.

    #1222458

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Everything does have worth. It’s not a lie.

    You’re entitled to your opinion.

    The Wolf

    #1222459

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I hope this has nothing to do with the Chofetz Chaim you alluded to. If it does, you are definitely misunderstanding it, because it applies to me too (I think), and I definitely have worth. (and so do you, for that matter!)

    If you are talking about something else, I still think you are wrong, because Hashem created everything.

    What are you talking about? What do you think doesn’t have worth?

    #1222460

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    nothing to do with the Chofetz Chaim

    Not specifically… and please allow me to state publicly and make unambiguously clear that anything I state (unless I explicitly make the point otherwise) applies to me and only to me. Not to my wife, my kids, my extended family and certainly not to strangers on the internet whom I never met and have absolutely no way of saying if they are good, evil or anywhere in between.

    What do you think doesn’t have worth?

    The above being said, the answer is me.

    The Wolf

    #1222461

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Wolf: “What do you think doesn’t have worth?

    The above being said, the answer is me.”

    That is ridiculous! Every single person (and especially every Jew) was created by Hashem and has a neshama that is “cheilik Eloki mamash” and therefore if you believe that Hashem has worth, by definition you have worth.

    Aside from the fact that it’s obvious from what we know about you from your posts.

    And saying that it only applies to you makes no sense, because if it’s based on the Chafetz Chaim, then it applies to everyone who it applies to.

    I’m pretty sure it says somewhere that even a mamzer can be a tzaddik (source experts, are you around? DY? Iacisrmma?).

    ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? Every single person has a pure Neshama. One of my Rebbeim pointed out that we say “is pure” not “was pure”. No matter what you did (or didn’t do) your Neshama is pure and remains pure.

    #1222462

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I’m sure your wife doesn’t agree. Or your kids. Or your friends.

    #1222463

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Wolf… have you spoken to a professional in the behavioral health field about your feelings?

    This sounds like it’s bigger than Torah for you.

    #1222464

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Last Mishna in Horayos, “???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????.”

    Wolf, you can’t be serious. Every person is infinitely valuable. Every choice you make has the potential to determine the fate of the entire world. Not to mention that, as LU pointed out, you are not worthless but invaluable to your wife, children and friends. To the people whom you hold most dear, your own worth can not be overstated.

    #1222465

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    And saying that it only applies to you makes no sense, because if it’s based on the Chafetz Chaim, then it applies to everyone who it applies to.

    I think (and I can easily see why you would this excusable mistake) you are conflating two issues. My self-worth has nothing to do with what the CC said. I grant the point that even a rasha gamur can have worth.

    I’m sure your wife doesn’t agree. Or your kids. Or your friends.

    Everyone’s entitled to their opinion.

    The Wolf

    #1222466

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf… have you spoken to a professional in the behavioral health field about your feelings?

    Huh? I don’t understand. You think me a horrible father because I give my adult kids a small amount of low-alcohol wine for shabbos (despite setting a good example to them about sobriety and responsible drinking) but now you’re concerned about me?

    The Wolf

    #1222467

    golfer
    Participant

    That was a beautiful post, LU.

    But you’re still a newcomer here.

    Every poster has their own game.

    This has been Wolf’s game for years.

    You get kind of used to it after a while, though he seems to be upping the ante a bit lately in an attempt to keep us on our toes and paying attention.

    I don’t totally disagree with Lightb’s suggestion of “a professional in the health field” but I would think a little CR attention will go a long way.

    #1222468

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Golfer – thank you very much for your kind words. While I am not sure I agree with what you are saying about Wolf (and don’t want to get into it), it does help me to gain some perspective on other things that have been going on in the CR which I have been having a hard time grasping. So thank you for that.

    That being said, I don’t believe that anyone is ever really completely “playing games” per se’ in the sense that everything comes from somewhere, and there is always something real behind what may seem like a “game”. At least that is how I have always looked at things, but I could be wrong.

    #1222469

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    I’m sure your wife doesn’t agree. Or your kids. Or your friends.

    Everyone’s entitled to their opinion.

    Their opinions are actually the deciding ones. If I think something has worth, then by definition it has worth, and it doesn’t matter what the thing thinks of itself.

    #1222470

    Thinking out loud
    Participant

    This thread has changed topic unfortunately, and I hope for everyone’s sake, that we find a way to get back to the more lighthearted spirit of the thread.

    That being said, I do have a comment that is both an innacurate thing we [may have] learned as kids, as well as my 2 cents regarding a person’s inherent value. It really deserves a thread all of its own:

    Many people, some of whom I am very close to, were taught as kids that they in fact do not have worth. It could have been through direct emotionally abusive statements, or indirectly, by implication, as their primary caregivers gave that message in their invalidating interactions.

    As disturbing and untrue that belief may be, it is sadly at the heart of emotional difficulties for many people. What we are taught as kids on this topic is critical to our development. We BELIEVE our primary caregivers, because they are the initial providers of our realities.

    It can take a lifetime of therapy to challenge such a destructive belief successfully. Logic, or proofs from the Torah are usually not enough to override such a deeply ingrained handicap. It is incredibly powerful. Even sadder, this belief, when expressed to, or perceived by others, often results in rejection. It’s not pleasant to be around someone who constantly puts themselves down. And so the negative belief develops into a life in which it is routinely reinforced as the truth!

    If your early life experience gave you a message that you have worth just because you exist, do not take that lightly. It is something to be very grateful for. Not everyone received that message.

    Only Hashem knows why some people are given this nisayon, which impacts almost every interaction they experience.

    There is help out there. It takes a lot for a person to even recognize that what they consider a fact, is really an unfortunate learned belief, and it may be helped with therapy.

    .

    .

    .

    <attempt at topic redirection>

    “reprinted” from another thread,

    Inaccurate thing:

    a bungalow colony is called a country!

    There are currently a number of community based telephone directories that are distributed in certain areas of Brooklyn. They are for-profit publications supported by commercial listings. There is usually an attempt to include a reference section, with random useful information. In one of these directories, a section for the Catskills is included. One of the lists in this section is titled – I couldn’t make this up – Camps, Mikvas, and Countries!!!

    </attempt at topic redirection>

    #1222471

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avrum +1.

    Wolf, what Avrum wrote is particularly true if it’s your wife and kids who think you have worth, unless c”v you think they don’t have worth.

    But if anyone who has worth thinks you have worth, then you must have worth.

    #1222473

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Ubiquitin – Thanks for the correction. I just looked it up and it’s the SA I was quoting, not the MB.

    In terms of the “very clearly” part, I was referring to the fact that the two foods don’t have to be different brachos. The SA mentions two portions of meat, & since two portions of meat have the same bracha, it is “very clear” that the two foods can have the same bracha.

    The words “very clearly” were really going on “and not two brachos” and not on “two different types of food”. I had not realized that he writes “portions” and not “types”, or I would have worded my post more accurately. My point remains true though, even if it wasn’t phrased correctly. My point was that “??? ???? ???” cant possibly mean 2 different brachos, although it can and does (at least according to most Poskim we follow, according to what I was taught) mean two types of food.

    Thank you for your corrections. It’s nice to know someone is reading and paying attention to my posts.

    #1222475

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But if anyone who has worth thinks you have worth, then you must have worth.

    At the risk of invoking Godwin’s Law, then even Hitler had worth.

    (And please don’t tell me that anyone who valued Hitler must be worthless, because then it just becomes a tautology.)

    The Wolf

    #1222476

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Seems to me that you didn’t just invoke Godwin’s Law, you fulfilled it.

    Al Gore has a negative carbon footprint. This is not because he doesn’t use any carbon, but because he contributes more carbon to the system than he uses.

    In much the same way, I think Hitler had a net negative worth – whatever value he held for the people who cared about him was negated by, you know, the rest of the story.

    I don’t think this is true for nearly anyone else – certainly not for a person who identifies as an ???? ???. [Please note I did not say ??? ???.]

    In any case, even a Rasha has a role in bringing about K’vod Shamayim.

    ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???

    Hitler had worth in the sense that he was a tool that Hashem used for His purpose.

    #1222477

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU

    Thanks for the clarigfication. You got me axcited since I have been looking for sources that say yo uneed two different foods and they are surprisingly few. the Aruch Hashulchan being a notable exception.

    now this may be because it is obvious that “two portions”, have to be two different foods (otherwise could just cut piece of meat in 2 and call it 2 portions) But 2 steaks or 2 pineapples are certainly 2 portions. So im not sure why a person wouldnt be yotzei.

    Interestingly in Mikrai kodesh R’ Frank says that two peices of meat from different parts of anaimal that taste different are a kosher shalach manso ( eg white and dark chicken?)

    #1222478

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    At the risk of invoking Godwin’s Law, then even Hitler had worth.

    You already preemptively resolved this question above:

    I grant the point that even a rasha gamur can have worth.

    To quote Arthur Conan Doyle in The Hound of the Baskervilles:

    To all the world he was the man of violence, half animal and half demon; but to her he always remained the little wilful boy of her own girlhood, the child who had clung to her hand. Evil indeed is the man who has not one woman to mourn him.

    #1222479

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Wolf, please read my statement which you quoted carefully:

    “But if anyone WHO HAS WORTH thinks you have worth, then you must have worth.”

    The people who felt hitler had worth were not people who themselves had worth.

    “(And please don’t tell me that anyone who valued Hitler must be worthless, because then it just becomes a tautology.)”

    Sorry, I don’t know what a tautology is, but I fail to see the problem with telling you that anyone who valued hitler must be worthless.

    My point was that your WIFE and KIDS think you have worth and I know that you think that they have worth, so if you think that they have worth and they think that you have worth, then you must have worth.

    #1222480

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Okay,I figured out what tautology must mean and I looked it up to be sure.

    But this is not a tautology because I was talking about what you already know. You already know that your wife and kids have worth (unlike hitler yemach shemo, l’havdil). Not only that, but you know that they have a lot of worth. If such worthy individuals consider you to be a very worthwhile individual, then you clearly are.

    #1222481

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    WTP: I learnt that Mordechai was Esther’s uncle…..brother to her mother. Therefore he can be both Her cousin (nephew of Avichayil through his father) and Esther’s maternal uncle.

    #1222482

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    iacisrmma, do you know where that came from? And why do most people go around quoting a midrash (if it is that) rather than a direct line from the megilla?

    My son brought home a Purim crossword. One clue was “Esther’s uncle”.

    #1222483

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, I thought you’d be interested in this. It’s copied and pasted from R’ Yair Hoffman’s article on the front page of YWN:

    “There is no need for the two different food items to have two separate berachos. This is one of the biggest misconceptions in Hilchos Purim. There is an issue, however, of taking one food item and cutting it in half into two slices. The Aruch haShulchan (OC 695:14) writes that just because one cut it in half it should be considered two foods? Perhaps it is this statement of the Aruch HaShulchan that has caused the two blessing myth to exist. If someone sends another two pieces of meat from two different limbs that tastes slightly different this is considered two foods (Mikraie Kodesh SIman 38).”

    It sounds like the idea of 2 different foods (as opposed to 2 different portions) comes from the fact that it’s obvious. The Aruch Hashulchan points out that it’s obvious. If no one else points this out, perhaps it’s because they felt it was obvious, so there was no need to.

    I looked up the AH inside, and one of the reasons he gives for why it’s obvious is that it says ??? ???? ?????? and he suggests that ??? ???? ??? may be a misprint.

    So I don’t think I was wrong when I said it’s clear that it’s two types of foods (my mistake was that I cited the MB instead of the SA).

    #1222484

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I have always wondered if the “2 brachos” myth started because it can be hard to figure out what constitutes 2 types of food in some cases (such as meat, chocolate, or cookies). Perhaps this was even more true in the older days when people weren’t picking up processed foods in the supermarket and were sending things like meat.

    #1222485

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU

    The mechaber does NOT say “shnei mini ochlin” That is what the Rambam says.

    Though the A”H is explicit that the foods have to be different (as I mentioned earlier http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/inaccurate-things-teachers-tell-us/page/3#post-649963). This not clear at all from the MB nor the Shulchan aruch. In fact the MEchaber implies they dont have to be different, (shnei manos bassar oh shel mini ochlin = two portions of meat or of types of food) and the MB does not comment at all.

    As for labeling the Rambam as a misprint, I could hear my Rebbeim fuming at tthat. Though who knows perhaps it is.

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