January 31, 2012 2:18 am at 2:18 am #601841
Baruch Hashem we have 2 children, we have beem trying for the past few years running to all differnt doctors/davening, the pain is just terrible. We want more children, are children always ask if they will have siblings….., the pain is so great.We are very happy when one of our siblings/ friends are expecting, yet in so much pain at the same time. Yes we are very aware that there are many that have not been blessed with any chidren, and maybe we should just be happy with what we have. Anyone is the same position? Some support?January 31, 2012 2:44 am at 2:44 am #918696Derech HaMelechMember
I am in a position that is not quite the same but very similar, in that I watch family and friends having more and more children while its been a number of years and so far I only have one. I spoke to my Rosh Kollel about it once in passing, He also only has two children. He told me that the most important thing is not to obsess about it.
I try to think: I have what I am supposed to have and nothing can change that. Instead I try to focus on what I have and give my extra time and effort that would have been divided to what I do have.January 31, 2012 2:49 am at 2:49 am #918697sof davarMember
My wife and I have been through this Parsha for many years. Baruch Hashem, at this point, we have two wonderful children. I know the pain and heartache oh so well.
There is a wonderful organization called ATIME. They have a website and an online support forum. Please check it out. You will find thread after thread of discussion, information, and chizuk.
Hatzlacha Rabbah in this painful but sacred avodas hakodesh.January 31, 2012 6:03 am at 6:03 am #918698RABBAIMParticipant
A Gadol once directed me to ask parents in this situation to clarify to themselves and in in their hearts and Tefillos. Do I want a child because I want or because I want to be zoche to partner with Hashem in raising a child to live a life of Kiddush Hashem.
Which is more likely to be answered in the affirmative?January 31, 2012 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #9186991st timerParticipant
Stay strong, don’t give up, do all the hishtadlus that you can spiritually and medically. A Time is a great organization! Most of all be happy and relaxed. Hazlacha Rabba!January 31, 2012 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #918700aimhabonimParticipant
If this will be of any chizuk- I know of a young couple that got married and had two sons in fairly quick succesion. Then nothing…and nothing …for a long time. Of course they ran to specialists,etc. When their younger son was over seven,they had healthy twin girls!!January 31, 2012 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #918701tzaddiqMember
it is very possible for a couple to have fertility issues even after having children. however because this is a very sensitive and difficult topic for just anybody to comment on, please go to ATIME or a forum specifically for these issues where you will get better advice, suggestions and tips in a professional and more helpful manner. with wishes for lots of brocha and hatzlocho to your family.January 31, 2012 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #918702
Another website you might want to try is fertilethoughts.com
They have forums specifically geared to the kind of support each challenge presents (primaryinfertility, secondary infertility, multiplemiscarriages, etc).February 1, 2012 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #918703
Secondary infertility brings with it a very complex emotional roller coaster. That feeling of “am I wrong for feeling this pain when so many people don’t have any kids and would give anything for the Brachos that I already have” is very normal. It is also very legitimate and normal to feel that pain. The advise to check out some forums specifically dedicated to this topic is a good one. But you most certainly are not alone.
If you are the type to get chizuk from fiction, Sara Weiderblank’s most recent serial in Binah featured a beautiful and realistic portrayal of someone dealing with secondary infertility. Maybe you can get the back issues from someone.
Hatzlacha to you in this nisayon.February 1, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #918704mikehall12382Member
I am the youngest in my family. Both my older brother and sister are adopted. Doctors told my parents that it would take a miracle to have a child naturally…well miracles happen because here I am!
If you already have children spend your energy on raising them and being the best parent. No sense obsessing about something that is out of control.
If you don’t have children I would seriously consider looking into adoption. You are truly performing a mitzvah and saving a life.February 1, 2012 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #918705DaMosheParticipant
I know what it’s like to go through this. My wife and I found out early on that we couldn’t have children naturally. Thankfully, Hashem sent us his messengers from Bonei Olam, who helped us tremendously. After about 4 years of running to doctors, we finally had twins!
Going through fertility treatments is very tough. Most people can’t understand what it’s like. My wife and I are happy now that we have 2 children. Would we want more? I don’t know. I choose to look on the bright side. We have a son and a daughter, so we fulfilled pru ur’vu according to all shitos. We won’t have to worry about the financial issues that sometimes come up when you have 6 or 7 kids. We don’t have to worry about getting burned out from raising kids all the time.
If, one day, we decide to try again, we’ll go back to a doctor. For now, we thank Hashem for sending us what we have. I’ve always been told that Hashem only sends us what we can handle. Maybe I wouldn’t be able to handle the stress of more kids? Hashem knows what’s best for me, so I leave it in his hands.February 1, 2012 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #918706tomim tihyeMember
Our first baby was born a year after we got married, and I was already thinking I’ll be one of those with 5 kids under age 5.
Starting from when she was in playgroup, my daughter kept asking us when she’ll get a real baby and be a big sister. None of her peers was an only child. While she did enjoy our undivided attention, sometimes it was too much for her, and that was when I realized that a child NEEDS siblings, perhaps even as much as parental attention.
She was in Pre-1A when our son was born, and that was the end of my secondary infertility. Boruch Hashem, we now have a houseful of children.
It seemed to me that while there is much awareness about the pain of infertility, people are totally oblivious to the pain of secondary infertility. It’s not obvious that you’re infertile (BC, miscarriages, etc.). I couldn’t share my pain with anyone except Hashem because the few times I tried to share with a friend, they’d be incredulous that I could even feel pain over not having another child yet, when so many people were waiting for their firsts.
It was better like this; I built a stronger relationship with Hashem. I knew He validated my pain because He gave me the ability to feel in the first place. I also knew that He wanted me to utilize the pain for growth. I became more sensitive to the pain that others might carry even if they didn’t seem to have any reason to be in pain. I began viewing people’s misbehaviors as stemming from their pain, whatever the source of which might be. This helped me act more supportively toward them; I saw them as people in pain, instead of annoying creatures or worse.
I could go on and on about my growth spurt, but it’s getting quite trite, cliche, and hackneyed (my vocabulary teacher would be proud!), and it’s starting to fall into the category of too-long-to-read posts.
I just want to add this thought which gives me chizuk:
The essence of Tefilla is the internalization that our salvation can only come from Hashem. We pray not in order to inform Hashem of our needs, but in order to remind ourselves of our total dependence on Him.February 1, 2012 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #918707
While I’m not presiding over a house of 10, I’m not a parent of an only child, either. Nor, am I a woman, so perhaps this is something a man cannot understand.
I know several couples who are still waiting to be blessed, and my heart breaks when I see them.
That said, the term “secondary infertility” garners zero sympathy from me. I think it is very selfish for someone with one or two children to equate themselves with someone who (loi uhlainu) has no children. To want more children? That’s a wonderful thing. To think there is something wrong with you as a person, or somehow you let your spouse down, because you “only” have 2 kids? That (IMHO) is uncalled for.
The number of children are not a scorecard, by which you are measured. How good a parent /spouse is what you are judged on.February 1, 2012 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #918708YW Moderator-20Moderator
BPT- I was deciding whether to put up your comment or delete it. I think you came across very harshly and might be hurting people.February 2, 2012 12:34 am at 12:34 am #918709tomim tihyeMember
bpt: I don’t think a man can feel the pain of a woman, who physically sees and feels the loss of the potential for life again and again, so I understand your lack of sympathy.
Of course, a woman’s worth is really not measured by how many children she has. She just feels sort of worthless when she can’t fulfill a basic function of a woman.February 2, 2012 12:53 am at 12:53 am #918710commonsenseParticipant
bpt, if you’re not going through it, or are the type of person who doesn’t really want a large family then you can’t understand it, and you are lucky. It is a constant and I do mean a day by day minute by minute avodah of working on being “sameach b’chelko” which is easy to say but not so easy to do when you really don’t feel it. It is not the hardest nisayon, I know that there are many worse things, but it is hard on a personal level to the people going through it, so maybe if you are lucky enough to not have this nisayon, at least keep your thoughts to yourself.February 2, 2012 1:50 am at 1:50 am #918711
Thanks everyone for the support and kind words/ advise. We will continue to daven and continue going to seek medical advice.
Moderator 20- Yes you should have deleted the post from bpt,,,,,it was pretty harsh……oh and btw I’m a guy too.
Moderator- pls keep this listing going.February 2, 2012 3:47 am at 3:47 am #918712dash™Participant
I think that post 350078 should stay. Despite the fact that it is hurtful to some, it shows a sentiment that many feel but supress for various reasons.February 2, 2012 5:26 am at 5:26 am #918713GoLearnTorahParticipant
Tomim tiyhe: Great point!
Many times Hashem withholds things from us (job, children, spouse…) so that we will daven or change something in our lifestyle and become closer to Him. For example, there have been people who were blessed in various areas in their lives when they thought it impossible – after they were koveia itim l’torah, or gave tzeddakah, or covered their hair, or were careful to say brachos when someone was nearby to answer amen…February 2, 2012 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #918714
The decision to pass or delete a post is always in the hands of the YWN staff. I wrote and re-wrote my post several times, before posting, to be as sensitivity as I possibly could. But the nature of the topic is so sensitive, no matter what anyone says, someone somewhere will take offense.
That being the case, I still tried as much as I could to be as sensitive as possible. And I stand by everything I said. Try for a moment to see things from another perspective:
* Couple A, married 7 years, has 5 children, with another on the way.
Due to the 5th degree that Mrs B is getting from her mother-in-law, her sisters, her sisters in laws, ect, she feels compelled to start on a very painful, costly and emotional road of treatments. Why? Because the pressure is on.
February 2, 2012 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #918715chocandpatienceMember
Due to the 5th degree that Mrs B is getting from her mother-in-law, her sisters, her sisters in laws, ect, she feels compelled to start on a very painful, costly and emotional road of treatments. Why? Because the pressure is on.
Your points are valid, but that’s not what the OP is talking about.
He’s talking about the pain of wanting another child in addition to the 2 he has. As he himself pointed out, he isn’t comparing it to the pain of those who are childless. But his pain is real and understandable.
So in the context of this thread, I would consider your post insensitive.February 2, 2012 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #918716mikehall12382Member
Why don’t more people look into adoption?February 2, 2012 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #918717
bpt — I’m sure there are people who have kids due to “peer pressure” — but there are also plenty of people who want children. Why do you assume the reason your “Couple B” is having treatments is due to pressure?
And since infertility, both primary and secondary, are often medical conditions, it is normal for someone to feel “something is wrong”. This is not a discussion on people choosing a smaller vs. larger family — it is about someone facing circumstances beyond their control that prevent them from having the family they were hoping for.
Beyond that, I don’t understand why “secondary infertility” is something you dismiss in such a belittling fashion. The concept that someone cannot feel like they are “struggling” just because others have it worse seems a bit bizarre to me. Would you say that someone who is struggling with Parnassah in a low paying job has no right to feel bad because there are so many people without any jobs at all? That someone with an illness that has a good prognosis cannot feel pained because there are people with terminal illnesses out there? Everyone has their own nisayon, and I believe that belittling someone else’s pain is insensitive no matter who you ask, even if you think they have no right to feel it.
I have a relative who has been trying for over 8 years to have a third child. Of course she appreciates the bracha that she has of her 2 great kids. She and her husband are wonderful parents, and really wanted a large family. Her pain of loosing that dream is certainly not the same pain as a childless couple, but it is very real nonetheless.February 2, 2012 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #918718
BPT- Your comments get more and more pathetic. Why would you assume that people want more children bec of family pressure….what a dumb statement. You should never know from such painFebruary 2, 2012 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #918719
chocandpatience = You make a valid point. However, I’m voicing the opinion of people (myself included, as it happens) who are judged by the “numbers game”. I happen to be able to take it on the chin, and keep marching, but for others in the situation that I outlined, the pain is very real. And unfair.
m in Israel = Have you considered what child # 1 and 2 feel like, when they hear that “you 2 are not good enough, we need more, or we have acheived nothing”. In essence, that’s what the message is, intended or not.
trim = As to why I come to that conclusion, I’ve heard it.
Lastly, people think that infertility is a womans domain, and only women have a right to comment. Wrong. Its a couples domain, and the husbands have every right to their say.
As a husband, I have a right to speak. And if you must know, I DO know of such pain. Know who put me there? Pressure from folks that feel only numbers count.February 2, 2012 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #918720
It’s definately true. There’s horrible pressure in the community to have a lot of kids, and if they’re not forthcoming, a person can feel like they wear their shame or nisayon on the outside.February 2, 2012 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #918721
I disagree with you that exposing kids to a wish to have more kids make them feel they are not good enough.
Children don’t have to see themselves as not being enough. They can choose to see themselves as loved so much that parents want more of this wonderful experience, not less.February 2, 2012 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #918722
“parents want more of this wonderful experience, not less”
Perhaps. But I see this as being in the same boat as a father telling his daughter, I love you, and in the next breath saying, “but if only I had a son” (And yes, I have heard that)
Or telling your spouse, “You’re terrific, but if only I had a 2nd one, our life together would be so much better, so much more complete.”
By saying you want more (over, and over again) the message is, what I have now is nice, but not enough.
Now, of course, I would never say this to a single person, nor to someone (hashem yirachem) that has not yet had children. For them, there is nothing but tefilos and shared pain.
But the implied pressure to have more that can be counted on one hand, and if you don’t you are somehow not living a meaningful life, that’s hurtful too. Perhaps not in the same way, but hurtful none the less.February 3, 2012 1:40 am at 1:40 am #918723
BPT- sorry to hear that you feel pressure from your community to have more kids. If that is something that really goes on is this world that’s pretty sick. That being said it still pretty nasty not to feel for people that want more kids (not bec of pressure, but bec they want to have a large family, and give their children siblings. Again we couldn’t care less what other think if we have x amount of kids, we don’t want bec of others.
I have a very good friend married for a few years, both husband and wife know they can’t have kids (bec of medical stuff when they were kids) ,,,,,,,,,my heart bleeds for them, they have no idea that I know of their medical problem.
I would be thrilled if they are blessed with a house full of children, and I still not allowed to feel pain inside bec we want more but arehaving trouble. My kids ask all the time for siblings,,,,,,do u think this doesn’t make the pain worse.February 3, 2012 7:57 am at 7:57 am #918724tahiniMember
Just to say as an only child I dreamt of having siblings and can understand the pain of a parent whose much loved kids ask for another sibling. I did just that. Now a mother and grandmother of quite a few and realise my longing for a big family as a child has manifested itself in adult life with joyful results.
Yearning to have more children to love and share the joys of life with is natural, no doubt in our frum communities this is magnified by the number of children people have, resulting in kids seeking to share in the love and care of younger children. A child seeking a new baby to love is obviously a child with lots of love to give.
But the pain of total childlessnes is something beyond words, emptiness and a sense of deprivation are profound.
Trim -dearly hope your children may indeed be blessed along with you to have a new baby to love, most of all enjoy your dear children and relish every moment. Sounds corny but really true, my kids are all big now and the sight of younger ones is always a pleasure to behold.February 3, 2012 9:41 am at 9:41 am #918725Shticky GuyParticipant
M in israel very nicely written post.
bpt 2 points. If you rewrote your initial post several times, how come you left in the phraze “I have zero sympathy”? This was the harsh, unnecessary part of your post which otherwise was saying we should have much more sympathy for those with no children than those with ‘only’ one or two. Secondly, most kids wont know their parents are davening for more kids and anyways all kids I know, even from larger families, want a new baby sibling so would be happy for their parents to daven for more.February 4, 2012 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #918726
bpt — It seems you are bringing up a completely different (and I believe valid) point — that people may be making choices regarding having children due to peer pressure. (And by the way, it goes both ways as well — I know of people who have children close together and have gotten comments such as “I can recommend a Posek for you to speak to if you want. . .”) If you wish to open a discussion on this topic, by all means start a thread. To raise it in this thread, where the OP is expressing pain at his inability to make that choice seems to me to be highly insensitive.
This is particularly so when prefaced by your first post which dismissed the whole concept of secondary infertility and accused those who feel pain over their situation (including the OP) as being “selfish”. You did this by setting up a “straw horse”, and putting words into his mouth that he didn’t say. (“I think it is very selfish for someone with one or two children to equate themselves with someone who (loi uhlainu) has no children.” — The OP clearly did NOT equate themselves with someone with no children — he even specified that his awareness of those suffering with no children makes him doubt his own pain!) Perhaps you object to the use of the term “infertility”, which in your mind means no children. Infertility however is a medical term referring to a medical condition that prevents one from having kids. Both primary and secondary infertility are medical diagnoses.
Finally, I don’t quite understand your comment with regard to the first 2 children. I would hope that no parent is having constant discussions with their older children with regard to their desire for more children. How are they sending this “unintended message”? By davening? By having treatments which I would assume the kids are not told about? The families I know are certainly not walking around talking about it with their kids — unless the kids bring it up, which is often the case. Additionally, where do you see in the OP’s post (or in my description of my relative for that matter) that anyone feels that “they have achieved nothing” by not having more kids? Each child is a complete world, not to mention that the people I know (and I assume the OP as well) have achieved much in many other arenas of avodas Hashem as well. That doesn’t change the fact that one can legitimately desire more children and be pained if circumstances beyond their control prevent it. It seems you are projecting your own negative social experiences, and perhaps the feelings you think others have towards you, onto a whole class of people in a very unfair way.
Personally, my mother had complications when my youngest sibling was born that prevented her from having any other children (there were no treatment options available for the situation, so she knew it was over). It wasn’t till I was an adult that I realized what pain she must have felt when she knew at the age of 31 that she would never be able to have another child. She never expressed that pain to me, however, and the only discussion I remember with regard to it was one time when I was innocently commenting (for probably the hundredth time!) about “when we get another baby. . .”, and my mother explained to me that because of how sick she was after — was born her body is not able to have any more children. I certainly felt disappointment — but for myself, not for her!February 5, 2012 5:38 am at 5:38 am #918727
M in Israel- Thanks very much for explaining all my points, I hope bpt, can learn from you,February 5, 2012 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #918728Lechayim120Member
To all parents who have only one or two children. If you are unhappy with your lot and want to give your children away, please let me know. I will be happy to take them off your hands. I have none.February 5, 2012 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #918729ChanieEParticipant
If you know of a good Jewish adoption resource please ask the mods to give you my e-mail address. Thanks!February 5, 2012 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #918730HealthParticipant
bpt – While I agree that there is a big difference between no kids and one or two kids -I disagree that they aren’t going through any Tzaar. E/o’s Tefillos should be answered for what they feel in their life is lacking.
As a side note -I once heard about s/o who said after she stopped having kids that she feels like an Akarah. This person has 14 kids. I don’t understand how s/o could make such a comment!February 5, 2012 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #918731147Participant
I have a small # of children, and a picture of each one, on my desk at work. You should hear the comments I receive at work:- What a huge family I have! and how can I afford it?
Many people at my work place, have no children, and of those who do have offspring, most have only 1 child, and tell me quite openly, that they could never afford to have a 2nd child. Only very few have 2 children, but I am probably the only one with more than 2 children, eventhough, I have fewer children than most of my friends.
When I ask the people who don’t have children [mainly by choice], they tell me, that they need their freedom; When I ask them who shall take care of them in their old age, they say things like their nephew & niece, or they simply cannot worry about it now, and will deal with it, when they come of age.February 6, 2012 9:17 am at 9:17 am #918732Shticky GuyParticipant
147: is that why we have children – to have someone to look after us in our old age?February 6, 2012 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #918733twistedParticipant
147: What you see is the reason the republic and western society in general is doomed. The beancounter sp. demographgus state that below 2.1 children per union, in competitive environments with immigration, the native culture will just disappear and the decline is irreversible. One of my many motivations for decamping to EY was the plain sight of barbarian types outbreeding the literati.January 9, 2013 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #918734DaMosheParticipant
Tonight is the Bonei Olam dinner in Lakewood. If you’re in Lakewood, please go and support this wonderful organization!January 10, 2013 1:17 am at 1:17 am #918735golferParticipant
DaMoshe has revived an old thread; reading some of the old posts made me curious- Do any of the posters have good news to share after all this time?
I was disappointed that a lot of the posts deal with the old- “my pain is bigger than your pain so don’t complain” routine. No sane person would mock or trivialize the pain of a person who is not blessed with the gift of children. But while admittedly not as tragic, surely we can understand the hurt of those who already have children but cannot have more.
The discussions reminded me of a shiva call I paid a while ago. There were a few siblings mourning the death of a parent who passed away at an advanced age. I couldn’t believe how many people felt obliged to announce that the aveilim needed to be thankful and happy for the many years they had with their parent. Some also had to add how unfortunate they themselves were for losing their own parent at a much younger age. I’m still upset with myself that I couldn’t find the right words to tell them to be quiet and allow the aveilim to mourn their loss; they can be thankful & joyous for their blessings some other time.
May the RBSO help all couples waiting for little blessings, those whose arms are still empty, and those who yearn for more!January 10, 2013 1:58 am at 1:58 am #918736TheGoqParticipant
Those comment’s are not so bad but i loathed the mourners who kept looking at their texts will i was sitting shivah it happened so often i just cant imagine how people can be so inconsiderate this is one time when your phone should be left in the car.
As far as childlessness I’m no stranger to this topic I cannot have children and this has hindered me greatly in dating once i was dating a girl and didn’t reveal my inability to have children till the second date, the mother of the girl and the shadchan treated me with such cruelty and disdain for this it really turned me off from dating altogether the sad part is the girl and i were getting along great.January 10, 2013 2:36 am at 2:36 am #918737
Seriously speaking I was very shocked when I saw that the post I started 11 months ago re appaired. I’m a guy and I was tearing as I read my post from 11 months ago Baruch Hashen we were blessed with a healthy baby girl a few weeks ago!!!!!. Wow I’m still shocked that my post came around again what hashgacha. Let’s all keep davening that everyones bakashos should be filled.January 10, 2013 2:40 am at 2:40 am #918738
Mods thx for bringing back this topic I started 11 months ago I’m still shocked….January 10, 2013 4:09 am at 4:09 am #918739TheGoqParticipant
Mazel Tov trim!!!!!!!January 10, 2013 4:14 am at 4:14 am #918740yytzParticipant
Mazel tov, trim!January 10, 2013 4:34 am at 4:34 am #918741
Thanks everyone!!! May we all share in simchos. Just a point obviosly we all need to daven. Boruch Hashem there was no major medical problem. However A Time did help us with referels and doctors. To anyone that is having trouble please call these wonderful organizations. A time. Or bonei olam…. They are there to helpJanuary 10, 2013 6:15 am at 6:15 am #918742a maminParticipant
Mazel Tov Trim!! may you only have simchas and loads of nachas!!!January 10, 2013 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #918743miritchkaMember
trim: Mazel tov!! That is such wonderful news!!
bpt: I happen to have a similar opinion, albeit with more pity. But as others have mentioned, this thread is not the place for it.
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