August 28, 2012 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #893236
mogold- well, I did start the ‘ad hominem’ attacks, accusing you of denigrating previous gedolim, so , from now onwards, I will refrain from ‘ad hominem’ attacks. You can do whatever you want, but your aspersions on me and my thoughts (you don’t even know me) are out of bounds. No matter,let’s stick to the issues. The Chassam Sofer zz’l died in 1839, so his views on Zionism, the return to Eretz Yisroel ,the medinah are impossible to know. THAT was my point. (Actually, you can extrapolate them, if you look in the kesovim of R” Zvi Hirsch Kalisher, a talmid of R”Akiva Eiger and a correspondent of the Chassam Sofer and they are very sympathetic to the return to Eretz Ysroel) .
On your main point of “chodosh ossur min hatorah”- which is what you are leaning on, actually it was a “horo’as sho-oh” because Reform was getting stronger and the Chassam Sofer intended to stop it. Many of the Chassam Sofer’s “issurim’ are not necessarily halocho (see R”Moshe Feinstein on the bimah in the middle, for example) but a response to the conditions of the day.
Hence, my point about not being able to lean on the Chassam Sofer’s words in regard to the medinah or anything in today’s world. One of the great Hungarian rabbonim , surely a follower of the Chassam Sofer, Rav Teichtal HY”D, changed his mind on the medinah and wrote the seminal sefer “Eim habonim Semeicha”,so you see that even talmidim of the Chassam Sofer could support a return to Eretz Ysroel.
As far as Greenbaum remarks, indeed ,he said something similar and he was roundly criticized for it- as you see, people still remember that odious remark seventy years later. However, it has nothing to do with Eretz Yisorel and the medinah.August 28, 2012 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #893237vochindikMember
ROB: It’s interesting that you mention Rav Zvi Hersh Kalisher. Rav Kalisher, when he wanted to make colonies in Palestine, defended his position by saying he has no intention of creating political independence, because it would be a violation of the shevuos. He insisted that he would never think of doing so if it means antagonizing the ruling powers of the land, as that would constitute a violation of the Shevuos. He said that others who have tried an “aliyah” idea earlier, who came illegally using force were nichshal and bordered on violating the shevuos – but he is not like them (writings, p.204).
As far as Rav Teichtal’s Eim Habonim Semeicha that you mention, it doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though Rav Teichtel was a Talmid Chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.
Example: On page 147 he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like Rabbi Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”
And it gets much, much, worse. This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny. Here are some quotes:August 28, 2012 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #893238Sam2Participant
How did I know that as soon as rob mentioned Eim Habanim S’meichah that we’d see the Frumteens cut-and-paste?August 28, 2012 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #893239
vochindik-you must have this sermonette ready for writing- as you posted it seconds after my posting! I am not going to enter into an argument about the validity of different seforim (Vajoel Moshe is a halocho sefer???) but I will take issue with your assertion about the persecution of jews in previous centuries and your blind belief that one Godol(the Munkatcher) was right and others were wrong.
If you cannot see that the Holocaust was a game changer in everything,then there is no point in continuing the discussion. In the past two millenia, there was no other corresponding catastrophe since the churban habayis. Even the expulsion from Spain was on another level. If you do not accept this, then there is no point in a discussion.
As far as the Minchas Elazar, you can follow him,if you wish. I (and many others) do not. I can readily accept Rav Teichtal HY”D and his argument about the coming of Moshiach. As a matter of fact , his explanation is very logical!August 28, 2012 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #893240mogoldParticipant
Thanks for your offer to refrain from attacks & to stick to the issues, which is a very rare phenomenon in the CR.
Those were to top talmidim of the CS & they clearly held that its usser.
Reb Moshe Feinstein ZL was a gadol hador but not all his psukim were accepted by people of Hungarian, Austrian decent, where the word of the CS ZL is unequivocally accepted as law.
I apoligize for some of the language I used to degrade youAugust 28, 2012 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #893241mogoldParticipant
BOBOV 2 Bobover shteibels in Wmsbg
VIZNITS 3 Vizniter shteibles in wmsbg
KLAUSENBURG 2 Klausenberg Shteibels in WmsbgAugust 28, 2012 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #893242
mogold- thanks for your posting. I agree with you that jews of Hungarian descent have accepted the Chassam Sofer zz’l as their final halacha (many would not even walk into a shul with the bima at the front). My point was that when he said “chodosh ossur min hatorah” , it was a “horo-as sho-oh” because of the success of the Reform movement in those days. That was my point in mentioning the psak of R’moshe zz’l.You are certainly welcome to follow his Piskei halacha but the whole world is not Hungarian…
And yet, we do not know his views on a medinah.
As far as Rav Teichtal HY’D, I only pointed out that even amongst the Rabbonim who followed the Chassam sofer’s derech, there were those who embraced the medinah. Not Zionism- mind you, but certaily the hope and the fact of a medinah.
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